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Talbot Darracq 700 Project

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WesR Wes Raynor
Leicester, Leics., UK   GBR
Most of my life has been involved with R/C model race car design and manufacture. Most of these models, with the exception of off-road buggies, were scale, or near scale representations of full size cars. Old habits die hard, as they say, for me when it came to building a cyclecart. In any case, as a lifelong motor race enthusiast, the possibility of producing a replica of a classic historic race car was perhaps the major attraction of this hobby. Of course it is not possible to produce an exact scale model because of the oversize driver but I hope to get as near as possible.
After over 30 years of RC car racing, my interest is also in the competition element of the hobby and I shall be very disappointed if I do not get some sort of race possibility, albeit not too serious, from this venture.
I looked at the steel tube chassis but, not having welding gear, I decided on plywood monocoque which has enabled, I feel, a much more realistic car.
Basically, one sheet of 12mm ply has built the whole chassis structure and a half sheet of 3mm ply has made the body. I am not saying this will definatly be strong enough. Only testing will tell. I am not saying too much about anything actually as the car has a number of features such as front engine and belt drive which don't seem to have been tried much and I accept that modifications may well be needed. The reason for the front engine is that the conventional rear engine would not fit in the tail of this car. I see no problem with the front engine position, indeed more weight at the front can only be good. The problem is whether to use chain, belt of shaft drive. One reason for choosing the Talbot D. was the fact that the drive shaft is to one side, alongside the driver. Because my drive system is also alongside the driver gives, I feel, an extra realistic feature. It also of course enables a very low driving position.
Hopefully I will get the transmission running soon and have some idea if it's going to work.

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Team classic Brian S
Lyttelton Christchurch, Canterbury, New Zealand   NZL
Fantastic looking car Wes. Well done old chap and best of British with the next step..Regards from ''down under''. Brian S.

Tom Knight Avatar
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   USA
1911 CycleKart Racing "Yellow Peril"
Spot on bloke......I think that means way go/good job......Tom (colonial)

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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello Wes,
Good choice of inspiration racing automobile and excellent realisation, with nice proportion caught!

I would like to see some photos of chassis only, with suspension if possible... (for some other project than CycleKart)
I am thinking about wood construction too, having simple welder with modest experience - but quite bad idea should be to work with it or electric-grinder in basement of building when we have our apartment (fire danger and nervous neighbors)...

Good luck in following work!
Ciao, Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

PDXBryan Bryan Dickerson
Troutdale, Oregon, USA   USA
Wes,
The Talbot is looking fantastic! I would expect nothing less from you, the guy that designed the neatest form of miniature racing ever (Magracing) and that unbelievably cool Targa Florio track.
An amazing builder friend, Mike, and I will be running a '27 Delage at the Tieton races. Wouldn't that be great to have the Delage and Talbot compete again? Admittedly, bringing your car to the states would be a heavy lift!
The Talbot is the car I will eventually build on my own. Hope you don't mind if I flagrantly copy some of your ideas.

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Nice start Wes, keep the noise coming. Like....how bout those rims and tires, typeo
and size??? Which engine you planning on using?? How bout some dimensions,
wb and tread?

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

WesR Wes Raynor
Leicester, Leics., UK   GBR
Thanks all for your encouraging comments. I like your idea, Bryan, of Delage v Darracq racing. I have followed motor racing all my life but my knowledge of 1920's Grand Prix racing was minimal and I have enjoyed learning about the impressive cars of this era. I looked briefly recently at other cars of this time and discovered that the very first Maserati was a G.P. car, designed in 1926 and called the Typo 26. This 1.5 litre straight eight car looks very similar to the Delage and Darracq except that the prop shaft is central so the car and driver ride a little higher. It would certainly make a nice addition to a 1920's cyclekart grand prix!

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WesR Wes Raynor
Leicester, Leics., UK   GBR
I said I wasn't going to write too much about belt drives, etc., until I had everything sorted but maybe discussing the options will help find the best answer.
When considering front engine - rear wheel drive, there are three options, shaft, chains and belts. Shaft drive would be difficult I feel for various reasons, the main one being a lack of suitable proprietory bevel gears at reasonable prices. I first looked at chains but my concern was the weight of the chain.
Belts are much lighter. There is then the question of which type of belt. There are many to choose from. I decided on a 'Classical timing belt', 1" (25mm) wide and 1/2" (12.5mm) pitch. This is a popular size, available in a good selection of lengths.
The next question is whether to have 3 short belts, 2 medium length belts or 1 long belt. Belts are light weight but what I didn't appreciate was the weight of the pulley wheels. Aluminium ones are surprisingly difficult to get and most are cast iron or steel and very heavy.
Three belts would need six toothed pulleys and, as each belt needs a tensioner, three tensioner pulleys. Two belts would need four toothed pulleys and two tensioners and one long belt would need (in theory!) two pulleys and one tensioner. The pulleys are also quite expensive and, as I was only looking for a 2.5 to 1 ratio drop, one long belt looked the way to start.
The nearest belt size is 140 inch. This is approx 4 inch too long so extra idler pulleys were needed to take up the excess. In hindsite, I would have made the chassis a little longer. This would have increased leg room and given more space around the motor front end for track rods, etc..
The photo shows what is undoubtedly the Mk 1 layout. The tensioner and idler pulleys are in the return leg of the drive as my thinking was that the top drive leg would be in tension and therefore less likely to flap/vibrate around. I was quite aware that it was a long stretch without any support but I thought it worth while giving it a try first just in case.
I ran the system, on the bench, for the first time today. The wheels turned, the belt didn't break and the oil filled clutch seemed to work ok!
As the speed increased however, the top belt run did begin to flap up and down and eventually began to catch on the idler pulleys. Not exactly unexpected,as I say.
There are plenty of options to try so I may be gone some time - as they say!
I will keep you informed.


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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 19719 by PDXBryan Wes,
The Talbot is looking fantastic! I would expect nothing less from you, the guy that designed the neatest form of miniature racing ever (Magracing) and that unbelievably cool Targa Florio track.
An amazing builder friend, Mike, and I will be running a '27 Delage at the Tieton races. Wouldn't that be great to have the Delage and Talbot compete again? Admittedly, bringing your car to the states would be a heavy lift!
The Talbot is the car I will eventually build on my own. Hope you don't mind if I flagrantly copy some of your ideas.
==================================================================================
Hello Wes,
It is always nice (for me at least) to find wider background about some project and in this case interesting person that create it!
Just after a second of searching (thank's to Bryan's inputs), your web-site pop-up on top of list:

http://magracer.com/site/wes-raynor-life-rc-racing/

Quite interesting story about magnificent auto-models building and racing! You are happy person that had and still have so much fun and joy from nice hobby that become business, too.

Now, you go one level up, making even more exiting and much bigger toy: CycleKart!

Attached is photo of your magnificent model of Maserati...

Regards, Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-18 02:05 PM by moto-klasika.

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PDXBryan Bryan Dickerson
Troutdale, Oregon, USA   USA
Hi Wes,
Well you've done it again! I've got lots of work to do and you've distracted me. A number of people are trying front-engined cars, however the group of racers here in the NW USA (gittrevillegp.com) stick pretty close to the "Stevenson principle" of looks and simplicity being of prime importance. You've definitely got the looks part down!

One front-engined project that I know of is Joey's build. I hope this link works.

http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/read.php?2,7257

WesR Wes Raynor
Leicester, Leics., UK   GBR
Got the car on it's wheels today. Springs seem good and ride height about what I expected. Not too good for off road but not likely to turn over which what I am most concerned about! The belt system is working better after several mods. There are now six idler/jockey/tensioner pulleys to minimise any belt flap.
The main problem is that the belt is around 4" too long. In hind site, the drive pulleys could have been slightly larger in diam. which would have been good as this would reduce the tension on the belt and the wheelbase could easily have been an inch longer and the belt would then have been the correct length.
There is very little info. around concerning belt drive systems. The only ones I can find are those used in small hovercraft so I have been busily reading up the hovercraft Forums. The engine seems to fit nicely in the front and I can see no reason why it should not well (eventually!) Just a question of finding the right belt, pulleys, etc. A little more work to do before I can run the car but hopefully it will be soon.


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Huvius Avatar
Huvius Ben Hill
Wheat Ridge, Colorado, USA   USA
What a beautiful car!
Your use of wood for the chassis is great - makes me think of the Jappic - but I think you will need to change your brake mount to a more sturdy fabricated metal part. Unless this is just a mockup for layout testing.

Also, are those 14" wheels?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-17 07:47 AM by Huvius.

WesR Wes Raynor
Leicester, Leics., UK   GBR
Quite right Ben, the brake caliper and disc are lightweight items. I think they may be ok for a handbrake and I need something heavier for a reliable foot brake.
Brakes are something new to me and I am finding these probably the most difficult items so far.
The wheels are 14" pit bike which are much easier to find in the UK. Just a fraction undersize but much closer to scale than 17". A pity no one makes 15" wheels.
My granddaughters are keen to have a go next year.


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Team classic Brian S
Lyttelton Christchurch, Canterbury, New Zealand   NZL
Lovely photo Wes.That's the best part. Sharing the fun with the family, and friends,[of course].

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Very nice looking car Wes, and very nice looking young ladies, your a lucky
grandpa.
I've very interested in the front engine karts. Really like to hear how it performs
when you get the bugs worked out.
And I'm fascinated by those tires, they sure look good. Can you take an outside diameter
measurement of them for us, to compare to the 17" Honda wheels, which are about 21 3/16"?
Tks
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

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