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Brakes. It's time to get a little more serious.

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RROLDSX Randy R
Delta, BC, Canada   CAN
Good point on the motorcycle pads, your hydraulic system kills two birds with one stone. My point was more about resolving brake fade with better pads, even on the mechanical system. There is no question your system is superior.

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ga.bob Bob Taylor
Perry, georgia, USA   USA
Come on Guy's! All you need is this state of the art braking system! Or a rope and a brick to throw out! LOL

Seriously, I added this for nostalgia. it only added three pounds to my kart, and I thought it looked cool. There is a mech disc setup on there too.

RROLDSX Randy R
Delta, BC, Canada   CAN
That does look cool. Next time you have it apart it would be nice to see how it's put together. I wonder if it can be adapted to bolt to the free wheel to help with those "pucker" moments I can only imagine at this point.

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Smoky Avatar
Smoky Silver Member Don Schmok
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada   CAN
The contact patch of a single knobby tire, can't be bigger than the palm of my hand.

I have a straight rod from my brake pedal to my mechanical disc brake. I can lockup my one tire anytime I want to, I'm not sure the weak part is the brake, but perhaps the small surface area of one small tire patch.

I would like to have more powerful brakes, but I'm not sure that the ability to lock up that tire more easily is the answer.

Clearly front brakes would change everything, including the definition of CycleKart.

My tuppence worth.



1929 Riley Bitsa

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
The problem is that the pad to rotor contact area, at least on the Airheart mechanical units, is too small.
That single little puck is overworked to bring a 4 or 5 hundred lb pakage down from 40 mph.
Done repeatedly, it heats up, glazes over and requires even more pressure. Finally seizing itself in the caliper requiring it to be broken free after a little cooling. Hydraulic action alone would not help this.
The swept area of the pad in a two piston caliper, and the superior lining material make the difference.


Bentaxle

dBlast Avatar
dBlast Vince De Blasi
Maple, Ontario, Canada   CAN
Would a bigger disc size work better with the mechanical caliper? I saw that most people were using the 6 inch disc, but there is also a 7.8 inch disc available from my local supplier.
Vince.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
A bigger disc might heat a little slower, but with the same size pad I think you'd eventually have the same deal. Too much friction on too little area.

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chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Yes Dave, the only way to reduce fade is to increase the pad area, of course that means more clamping force is needed for the same braking effect. That in turn takes it beyond what a reasonably compact, not overly heavy mechanical caliper can deliver, so hydraulic is the only way to go. I'm going to get two discs to fit the front wheels I've ordered, in case sorting a linkage to make the rear brake double as a parking brake proves too difficult. I'll then use mecanical calipers on the front. Before anyone says it's not neeccessary to have a parking brake, I do NEED one, with one enclosed rear wwheel on the Morgan, and level ground at a premium in Wales it is essential.

Chris

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
What diameter disk are you using? 6 or 8 inch?

-Bruce

In reply to # 25125 by gt350rspeed This is my set up. All parts were sourced on Amazon. I had to make brackets and had to work out the kinks but this car stops great now and pedal is easy to press. The car weighs 320lbs
Brake Caliper For GY6 150cc Chinese Go Kart Go Cart https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G5OEUJC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_BlWxzb74339Q7
Areyourshop 200cm/79" M10 Brake Oil Hose Line Banjo Fitting Stainless Steel Swivel End https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYY6BW6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_gmWxzbG7654DZ
QUIOSS Rear Brake Master Cylinder Assembly for Yerf Dog Go Kart GX150 150CC https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N8TU1HD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_MmWxzb4MWQZP4

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ga.bob Bob Taylor
Perry, georgia, USA   USA
After some body work, I rolled my kart out to clean up. this photo shows the contact patch on my tire. Not much there to stop me, no matter what disc I use!

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Bob,

My understanding is that it's not how powerful the brake is, as you say that's limited by the contact patch, but how much you can use it before fade sets in. Larger pads and hydraulic operation will give harder braking than the tyre grip can sustain, or the same degree of braking as a mechanical setup, but for longer.

Chris

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Precisely, Chris.
If anyone thinks that little tire patch is not enough grip to work a brake hard enough to fade,
I would invite him to go out and make oh, about 60 good hard decelerations from 40mph down to about 25mph every 10 seconds and see what happens. Those are realistic numbers for 6 laps around Tietons Grand Prix circuit.

Again, If you're not planning on running that hard, it obviously is not as important. My little mechanical
is fine for casual driving. But like many, I built the car mostly with events like Tieton in mind.

ga.bob Bob Taylor
Perry, georgia, USA   USA
Dave. I was not suggesting that brake fade in competition was not a problem. just noting how little surface area some of us have with certain tread designs. I hope to run mine in competition as well, and will be addressing the brake issue too. I wonder if having the disc on the left side, trying to stop all the rotating mass till it gets to the right side wheel makes any difference?. Or is it all the same no matter what? I have been testing my braking with my hand brake and disc at the same time, I can bring it to a halt much quicker using both, even though the force is applied to the same driven wheel. I'm not an engineer, so these are just observations from a newbie.

Bob

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
I get you Bob. I too am pretty new to this scene, and taking my kart over to Tieton was my first event as a participant. I was under the impression that I was similarly equipped to pretty much everyone else, when it came to brakes. And indeed there were many cars using the exact system I had installed. But being a part of the action allowed me to see, and experience what that kind of driving does to the typical cyclekart brake setup, and it wasn't pretty. I know that guys have been running in these events for years
using sketchy brakes, and will no doubt continue to do so, but for me to feel comfortable running hard they have to be better.

As for braking the free wheel, that's an interesting point about the added load of the entire spinning mass when braking the drive side. It must have an effect. But to brake the free wheel you would have to mount the rotor and caliper outside the bodywork on the atv hub itself, or else use some in hub setup.
I wonder if that wheel would be more susceptible to lockup, being truly independent of the drive train.
It would be interesting to try it anyway. I did learn the hard way though that unless you lock
both wheels for the dirt, you will be beaten like a rented mule by the majority that do!

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Follow up.
Having had a chance to exercise my new setup pretty thoroughly now, I should say that I
am very happy with the decision to go the sportbike rear assembly route.
About 35.00 for a used 600 Ninja system from Ebay, 20.00 for an 85" line, and now it really
can stop as good as it goes. Better maybe.

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