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Observations from turn 2.

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geezerduck Avatar
geezerduck Tom Petry
Montclair, California, USA   USA
CornerMarshallBill, I'm in the Amen corner on this. I'm building a HA/GR drag car https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forums/ha-gr.38/ (my build thread https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/rapid-rabbit-112-build-thread.189651/ ) and as the class is designed with limited rules as to be a revival of how things were done in the days of the home garage built dragsters of the late '40s and early 50's, the concept is design and build your own within those limited rules.

It's amazing to me how many people have wanted to know where you can get plans to build one (chalk lines on the garage floor and a pile of parts work good) or even in some cases where to by a prefab chassis.

Cyclecars and hotrods are meant to be home built and as such need to involve some imagination and creativity on the part of the builders. Some component purchases are to be expected in things like engines and drive train parts (no need to reinvent the wheel) but the fun of our endeavors is building our vision of what we think the cars should be.

There are plenty of cars and classes out there for the folks who want to buy a "store bought car" but there are still some domains where good old hotrodder's ingenuity should apply.



Life is good on the lunatic fringe, Tom

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Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
We all are interested in making this grow which motivated me to ask several people in the Spokane area that have a passion for cars if they know about CK’s which the answer was yes. Many have turned wrenches full time or at least as a hobby. One had contacted a CK Manufacture for information he was told groups in the northwest will not accept manufacture CK’s. I’m not sure of what to make of that. I think we have a potential group of participants which need a push maybe not into starting a CK from scratch but at least starting with a list of permissible purchased manufactured parts. Denny G. has put out a suggestion in a previous post I think might be a workable possibility.



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Well, It is true that Gittreville won't invite a factory car to their events. And it's understandable that a guy
considering buying one would take that into account, since they so far run the only event up this way.
But it's kind of a shame if we are all being portrayed as snobs up here, who wouldn't lower ourselves to share a road with a car built by someone other than it's driver. Somebody stages a mixed event and I'm there! And I'll bet that goes for most of us. Tieton though was conceived as a Makers event, and I feel like that should continue to be upheld. Part of what makes it so special is that you can't just buy your entry. If you've been invited, you put in the time and went to the trouble.

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gearguy Charles Schultz
Oil City, Pennsylvania, USA   USA
Built vs bought is an argument in many hobbies. No one likes it when someone who merely financed a project claims to have built it. However, many of our most esteemed "inventors" basically put their name on top of the patent application of work done by their loyal minions.
Coming from an oval track racing background it always offended me that the actual designers of the cars got so little credit and someone who fitted and welded tubes to a plan was honored as the "builder." In midgets [speedcars] and sprints the cars often use many purchased bits including hoods and tail tanks on custom frames. No one faults them for not making their own front axle or suspension bits.
Someone just published a list of cars/trucks with high percentages of "domestic content." A few years back a Chevy Cruze was only 38% "American" and that was including Canadian bits as domestic.
No one wants to see cycle karts become a "spec" series where only the car numbers and color are different. I have no issue with someone buying a rolling chassis to dress up as their inspiration car though.
My good friend Gregg Kishline once spent two solid weeks reworking the fiberglass nose and tail of a 1/2 scal Watson roadster model. I asked him why he did it on something destined to spend its days as man cave art hanging over a bar. He answered "because I would know it wasn't right." That is what a craftsman and artist does; if you really build your CK you do not have to explain anything to anyone IMHO.

Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
I agree let’s not taint the blood lines we have at the Tieton GP. With that said now many would be willing to gather at a venue of both while maintaining the design concept of race inspiration vehicles, length width, wheels, motor and so on. I realize there is more to it than just that but is it an option. The last thing I want to do is create bad feelings among us.



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
You might be talking about a class structure within a group Al?
I see no problem with running a "factory built" class and possibly
an unlimited class at a large meet. Variaty is the spice of life and
it's what is going to pull in large numbers of guys that, as mentioned,
don't have the ability or time to built themselves and guys that are
seeking a bit more of a challenge from the sport.
It makes no sense to me to call this racing in one breath and then
discourage the competitive aspect of it in the next.
There can and will always be room for the sportsman category,
but to restrict all the competitors to a homebuilt only sportsman class
is going to do nothing but turn many potential parties away.

My nephew is heavy into rock crawlers and he was telling me
today that a lot of the guys are showing interest in the Cyclekarts
for a way to have something to run in the woods without the investing
$20K in an ATV. Of course the first question was, "Are there factory
made Cyclekarts?"
DG

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
I would show up for any event even loosely based on the cyclekart idea.
These cars sit around way too much. Let's roll!

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CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Even a timed run event like an autocross or hillclimb would be alot of fun. It would allow for
wide array of performance and design, sort of like a poor mans Goodwood.
Of course wheel to wheel action is best, but alot trickier to work out. I am constantly on the lookout for possible venues. But over on this side of the state, it's not to easy to find people who want anything to do with this kind of foolishness, on their property.

DoinItWrong Avatar
DoinItWrong Anthony Gurganious
Oak Harbor, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1929 CycleKart Italian "Fiat Gipsy"
I still don't understand. What's so hard about building your own? Justin and I did it with next to no know-how, a cheap welder, and a list of guidelines. We bought knock-off spindles, what turned out to be a bent Asuza rear axle, a few purchases off Amazon, and a set of miss-matched CT-90 wheels. The rest was sourced stuff we had lying around and many trips to Ace Hardware. 95% of the fun in building was walking around Home Depot and seeing things we thought we could make parts from. We built our first version in 2 months after seeing the first one on google images. And we both have full time jobs and families.
Why do we who build not want a bunch of cookie-cutter rolling chassis running around with bodies stuck on them? Because if you want to buy your way into racing, buy a gokart. Factory built ones are readily available. Cycle Karts are built by men and women who drive them. I agree with OP.



El Diablo (Anthony Gurganious)
1/2 Owner
1/2 Builder
1/2 Driver
1929 Fiat Gipsy
Team Captain: Team Doin' It Wrong

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CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Anthony, to guys like you, me, Al, Denny, Charles and the rest, it is second nature to see something we want to build and clear the bench and have at it. What we don't know, we'll learn. If we lack a tool, we'll
find one, and so forth. But there are people, decent people, who are fascinated by old cars and our irresistible little replicas of them but who truly have never held a wrench in their hand that wasn't adjustable Grown men whom, if they have car trouble, automatically reach for the phone instead of the hoodlatch. It's foreign to us, but many people are just never given the skills, and aren't that interested
in aquiring them now. Still others may have the backround but just don't have the workspace and equipment. Whatever the reason, I don't propose to shut down anyone else's entertainment by demanding a certain level of commitment before I'll accept them into my presence. The factory guys
will be missing a bunch of the satisfaction, sure. But it's not like their taking any away from
me.

Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
Anthony,
You have a valid point and I do not want our format to change, Tieton is special for those us that want and can build.
I’m not sure how to put this other than not everyone has our gifted ability. Do we want to segregate ourselves from potential individuals that could help even the home builders discover new sights to race. One individual stated he had property that might be a great place for it. He is an older hot rodder that was trying to bring others in the car community together and maybe with some help we all prosper.



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy

JTremain Avatar
JTremain Justin Tremain
Oak HArbor, Washington, USA   USA
Going to keep this sweet and to the point. Probably a bit off topic I suppose.

I take it there will always be a venn diagram of opinions and nothing will change that, so let's move forward. Not sure about you, but I'm tired of getting the email notifications with everyone saying the same thing over and over.

There are a couple ideas I really like. I think an autocross format would be a lot of fun, that way it doesn't matter what anyone does build wise as because you're just racing your own time. I also like the idea of different classes; ie unlimited and factory, but that means having enough of each to actually hold an event.

I don't know, I know where I stand on the subject and i'm tired of the going in circles. I've also had some beers, so there's that!



"Magic Man"
Team Doin It Wrong

1929 Fiat Gypsy
"The terror of Tieton"
"The 1965 911 of cyclekarts"

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Ah, then.
It'll all make more sense tomorrow.
Seriously though, kicking these ideas around is good for progress. And progress to me is ending up with
more places for us all to get together and kick up dust!

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Just watched a few of the flicks posted of the Arizona bunch in action.
This is a good example of just what this thread is about. They mix it up
with the VKC cars and I don't see a heck of a lot of difference between
the VKC factory made karts and the ones that the guys are building
themselves.
Carlos seems to finish on top most of the time but it's not entirely because
of the kart. He obviously is out to win and his aggressive driving style is the
major factor to his being out in front.
The CG is quite low in the VKC cars, which is a big factor and in the way those
karts stick.
So these are very good examples of Homemade vs Factory mixing it up
together and neither having any great advantage. I would bet if you put
Carlos in any of the other karts with the same engine tune and gearing
that he would still head the pack at the checker.
Homemade karts are not all going to be inferior to factory made karts.
There are some builders that have the tools and skills to build a kart
as good or better than one that comes off a production line.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Azroddy Avatar
Azroddy Jon R
Mesa, AZ, USA   USA
Hey guys,

I understand the want to have a totally hand made Kart. I think that would really show your skills. I did a ton of research about cyclekart, just like everyone else I would guess. I don't remember seeing anything about hard rules. Everything is very open to what you can do or what to do. There is basic ideas of limits and best practices. The main thing that I took from everything is, its meant to be fun. That is the one rule that I follow. If building every part is fun to you then do it. If buying parts gets you to the part that is fun for you faster, then do it. If you are slow buy upgrades to the motor until your having fun. I was asked a while back what are the rules that we follow. I said no rules,we're rebels like that..lol. Then I was asked what level motor upgrades we can they do. I know the purists say level one or is it two. So I said that. Then I was asked if they could do more so they can be competitive. Sure, why not. So after thinking about it my new answer is you can do anything you want as long as it is fun to you. Its not fun if your being passed and can't keep up with the pack. The limit is when you went too far and you made it not fun for the rest of us. So if you win every race and you have a motor that is not level 1 or two then you are now breaking the rules. Still working on what the punishment could be. Its all about fun. If you take cyclekarting to serious then you are braking the most basic rule. This is just my opinion.

Have fun guys,

Jon



Jon R.
Arizona Cyclekart Club Member

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