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Starting the Maserati CM4 Build!

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Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
Well, after debating designs and shooing away some Real Life impediments, the build is on! The 4th of July sale at Harbor Freight got me off my duff and moving. I now have the Predator engine in the garage, and a matching GTC torque converter on the way. Order for the frame material and other bits pending a full scale drawing.

I even have a new assistant to help me get the drawing right. He's so new he doesn't have a name yet, but I'm sure some incident will give him an appropriate one smiling smiley As you can see in the photo, he's an articulated 2D crash test dummy shaped model, made to my own height (but sadly, not quite my weight). He's made of 1/4 inch plexiglass cut on a laser cutter, with #6 screws and wingnuts at the joints. I wanted him so could get a really good fit in the car, because after the recent New England Dustoff, it was obvious that driver positioning and comfort was a key factor in having a car that was fun and easy to drive.

The plan is to use sheets of "Thrifty White Panel Board" from Home Depot for the drawing layout. I've used this stuff before as whiteboard and swear by it. It's about $13 a sheet, works well with dry erase markers and wet erase markers (think overhead projector markers). I'll be using wet erase markers for this job because the lines stay put, but are easily wiped up with a damp paper towel when needed. The white background gives a nice high contrast line, and you can even erase a dry erase marker line while leaving the wet erase line in place. Great for thinking-out-loud.

Does anybody have an outline drawing of the engine and/or torque converter assembly in side view? I'd love to have a template to move around on the design for best layout.

-Bruce

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Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Welcome Bruce
Search "Component Drawings" then go to page 2, post #29 by Charles Schultz
There is a printable side and rear view of the motor a TAV.
I to mine down to the local print shop and had them blow it up to the actual size using the dimensions shown, then cut it out and used it to pin up to my
full sized drawing on my shop wall.
Worked great of locating things.
Brian
"Woody"

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
Thanks Woody, that's exactly the right thing!

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CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Bless you Sir, for settling on that Maserati!
Now do it justice!

Silverghost Peter Hays
Chicago, IL, USA   USA
I have the ability to make the full size driver mock up at work out of corrugated. If there is a CAD file - dxf. or pdf. or AI. - available, I can make sets. Use brads from a craft store for the joints and Bob's your uncle! smiling smiley

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
File on the way to you, Peter. Have fun with it!

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
Calling for advice on my design!

I'm trying to figure out how much narrower (if at all) I need to make the front of the car. It looks to me like the hood is very slightly angled in as it goes forward. There's a sort of skirt at the bottom that seems to get wider. Based on that, maybe the frame is actually parallel the entire length. Anybody concur? Having the frame parallel would make life somewhat easier for setup.

I'm seriously thinking of trying a rear suspension using the elliptical springs in the back. There are a few designs floating around on this site that have a sprung axle+engine setup, and since I'd have to build some sort of an inboard axle support anyway, it seems like something to try. If it's a total failure, I can make it rigid again easily enough. If only somebody made a weightless differential to go on it! LOL If anybody has tried a setup like this and wants to chime in to say how it worked, I'd love to hear about it.

Got a lot of stuff ordered and am awaiting arrival. Still need to clear out the shop to make room. It keeps raining on the days I have help and the time is dragging on.

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Bruce, if you look closely at the front of the Maserati, you'll notice the front of the bodywork is narrower than the frame rails. The nose of the frame has a little panel covering it, you can just extend that panel back to cover the gap between frame and body, so, yes make your frame rails parallel.

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
Further report on the Maserati build. It's been slow going so far, but we are nearing the point of breaking out the tools and mangling some metal.

First issue that has been holding me up has been the suspension. Of course, I want springs front and rear, since it seems most of our driving in the northeast will be on dirt. A man has to watch his sacroiliac, after all! But in addition to weight, it adds some complications. For example, getting the ride height right. Well, I made a 2X4 mockup of the frame, hung my carriage-seat springs off the thing and put myself and a big bag of sand on the back to simulate the weight of the engine and such, and took measurements of how much the springs flexed. I proceeded to bounce up and down and had the missus observe how much more it moved and made notes. Now, looking at the current arch of the springs, the desired ride height, and frame clearance, it's not going to be easy to get it to all fall into place. So a question to all you builders - when you are making your drawings, do you draw it so it's in the "fully loaded" position or "empty"?

I want to keep the CK as close to the inspiration car as possible in terms of layout,especially with such visible items as the leaf springs. If I could de-arch the springs I have, it would probably solve my problem. Suggestions? Alternatives? Ideas?

-Bruce

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Did you have the arch in the tail of your mock up? That would be the area that can give you a little bit of play and still look like the inspiration. It may be as simple as mounting the spring a little higher on the frame than the original.

The Mas isn't a low riding car as it is, but by the time you're done scaling the width, a little lower will look perfect.

I think the best way to run a rear suspension on a cyclecart is through a jack shaft. The jack shaft would have to be at the pivot end of a couple of steady rods, that way when the suspension flexes it won't throw the chain.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
You could have those springs de-arched pretty cheap. 20 bucks maybe.
But unless you actually have back issues, these wheels, tires, and 2" of dense foam really absorb alot more shock than I thought. I don't miss rear suspension at all, even in that orchard. And I surely don't miss the weight.

Wikispeeder Bruce C
Tewksbury, MA, USA   USA
My intent was to lift Earl Upgrade's rear suspension design. It's a beautiful piece of work, and I do have some back issues that I want to keep minor, so I'm willing to add a bit of weight for that. Besides, it's a fun engineering challenge. smiling smiley



The mock up did not have the wheel arch, but wasn't really intended to address that aspect of the design. It was strictly to see how much deflection the springs had front and back under load with the static weight distributed and then under some dynamic action. The real frame will have the arch in the back and the taper in the front.

I can adjust ride height in the front by the bend in the axle design, but the rear is going to be a bit trickier. Hence my thoughts of de-arching. Not being a leaf spring guy, I don't know what side effects de-arching might have, so I'm open to further conversation.

DOMIT William Smith
Fort Worth, Texas, USA   USA
In reply to # 25960 by Wikispeeder Further report on the Maserati build. It's been slow going so far, but we are nearing the point of breaking out the tools and mangling some metal.

First issue that has been holding me up has been the suspension. Of course, I want springs front and rear, since it seems most of our driving in the northeast will be on dirt. A man has to watch his sacroiliac, after all! But in addition to weight, it adds some complications. For example, getting the ride height right. Well, I made a 2X4 mockup of the frame, hung my carriage-seat springs off the thing and put myself and a big bag of sand on the back to simulate the weight of the engine and such, and took measurements of how much the springs flexed. I proceeded to bounce up and down and had the missus observe how much more it moved and made notes. Now, looking at the current arch of the springs, the desired ride height, and frame clearance, it's not going to be easy to get it to all fall into place. So a question to all you builders - when you are making your drawings, do you draw it so it's in the "fully loaded" position or "empty"?

I want to keep the CK as close to the inspiration car as possible in terms of layout,especially with such visible items as the leaf springs. If I could de-arch the springs I have, it would probably solve my problem. Suggestions? Alternatives? Ideas?

-Bruce

For the rear you could hard-mount the axle per the Stevenson formula, and cut out wooden mock leaf springs. It would save some weight and keep it simple. I would probably go so far as to hollow them out with a router for weight savings, or build them up as a box from plywood... or maybe cut out plywood sides and sandwich some foam between, then cloth wrap them like many period racecars. Lots of way to "skin a cat."

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Okay Bruce
Your head is exactly where mine was one year ago after Tieton!
I too wanted rear suspension like you have in your posted photo.
But, from suggestions received here on the Forum and watching all of the Tieton race videos, I concluded it was not necessary!
Thus, I stayed with the solid mounted rear axle and made fake springs that act as my outside bearing carriers, for that original look.
As I too am going for inspiration car detail on my 1924 Miller 122.
Take a look at my build pictures on my 1924 Miller 122 Project thread.
I have lots of picturesI would be willing to share with you via email.
Woody

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi Bruce
I just looked at my build thread, and I have posted most of the pictures already here on the Forum.
Check out pictures from about page 10 to 14
Woody

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