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2017 Gorden Bennett

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JTremain Avatar
JTremain Justin Tremain
Oak HArbor, Washington, USA   USA
Here's our footage from the Gordon Bennett. Most of the excitement is on the first, but I posted the complete race!






"Magic Man"
Team Doin It Wrong

1929 Fiat Gypsy
"The terror of Tieton"
"The 1965 911 of cyclekarts"

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Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Thanks for the video Justin and congratulations on the clean sweep. Those are
the first action shots from the weekend, the karts look at home out in the orchard.
I'm sure Dennis T will be along with lots more film also as soon as he catches up.

Now….the question that pops into mind immediately right from the flag drop is……
how do you get that kind of acceleration and speed (posted 60 mph?) out of a
stock 212 Predator???? It made all the other karts appear to be 50lbs over weight
and running totally box stock unmodified governed engines. I made my wife, who
is not a racer or really interested in cars or karts, watch the first lap and asked her
if she noticed anything unusual about the race. Same observation as I had, "how is
he able to pass every kart out there in less than one lap??"
I believe we, i.e. the group, discussed this quite a lot in the “Top Speed” thread. The
10/54 gear with 21” tall tires that Anthony posted, tops out at 58mph in the calculation, not
factoring in any or all the parasitic drag. So that gear should, make for pretty lame
acceleration unless you have the power to pull it.
The tire size, gear ratio, weight is all out in the open and no secret, but me and a whole
bunch of other guys would sure like to know your hidden secrets, which must lie hidden
in that Predator.
Thanks
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

JTremain Avatar
JTremain Justin Tremain
Oak HArbor, Washington, USA   USA
Thanks, Denny much appreciated! I think we're all eagerly awaiting Dennis's footage haha

As far as the kart is concerned I'll start with the engine. First off this year, it wasn't stock. We purchased the stage 1 kit from nr racing and threw that on a new hemi predator. Our weighed in at 230 lbs, so there were plenty of karts that were actually 50lbs heavier! So we've got some power to weight ratio stuff going on there. Here's the part that'll really get you, we weren't running the 10/54 ratio on the GB.... It was 10/44. How it still accelerates as hard as it does is something we're still trying to wrap our heads around! It performed so well in the GB that we left that gearing on for the orchard race, which doesn't have anything close to the long straights.

So there it is, our secrets haha winking smiley

In reply to # 25176 by Denny Graham Thanks for the video Justin and congratulations on the clean sweep. Those are
the first action shots from the weekend, the karts look at home out in the orchard.
I'm sure Dennis T will be along with lots more film also as soon as he catches up.

Now….the question that pops into mind immediately right from the flag drop is……
how do you get that kind of acceleration and speed (posted 60 mph?) out of a
stock 212 Predator???? It made all the other karts appear to be 50lbs over weight
and running totally box stock unmodified governed engines. I made my wife, who
is not a racer or really interested in cars or karts, watch the first lap and asked her
if she noticed anything unusual about the race. Same observation as I had, "how is
he able to pass every kart out there in less than one lap??"
I believe we, i.e. the group, discussed this quite a lot in the “Top Speed” thread. The
10/54 gear with 21” tall tires that Anthony posted, tops out at 58mph in the calculation, not
factoring in any or all the parasitic drag. So that gear should, make for pretty lame
acceleration unless you have the power to pull it.
The tire size, gear ratio, weight is all out in the open and no secret, but me and a whole
bunch of other guys would sure like to know your hidden secrets, which must lie hidden
in that Predator.
Thanks
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL



"Magic Man"
Team Doin It Wrong

1929 Fiat Gypsy
"The terror of Tieton"
"The 1965 911 of cyclekarts"

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Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Well thanks for the comeback Justin. guess I'll just remain baffled at
how ya'll get a stage 1 modified Predator 212 to pull away from all
competition while using a 4.4:1 gear ratio. That just goes against
everything that I've learned about gearing in my 75 years of being
around performance vehicles. Especially since 75-80% of the
participants have made the very same stage 1 mod to there 212's
or GX200's.
The 60 mph mentioned on the highway would have your engine turning
only 4200 rpm, and the 40 mph that you were making in town has that
Predator turning barely above idle at 2900 rpm. Doesn't seem possible
at those revs that it would be developing enough power to pull away
from the curb let alone pass traffic.
I think you might be pullin' my leg. Ya gotta have more secrets you're
not letting us in on.
But.....congrats anyway. I'm all for better performance out of the
Cyclekarts. For me at least, putting around in a yard kart isn't gonna
hold my interest for long. I want to see something that has a little
snap to it coming out of a corner and needs some hard braking
into the turns.
DG

JTremain Avatar
JTremain Justin Tremain
Oak HArbor, Washington, USA   USA
We had 5.4:1 during the grand prize races, changed gearing after we finished.

Granted I've never had a tach on one, but I think that these engines might hit 5000rpm on a bench with no load. Installed on a kart with full load and a driver, I find it hard to believe they're still achieving 5000. I think the speed calculators are great to give you an idea but you can't base everything on them. Weight plays to big of a part in the actual on the road performance.

I'm sure everyone thinks there's some secret that we're not sharing to keep a competitive edge, but we're being 100% honest.



"Magic Man"
Team Doin It Wrong

1929 Fiat Gypsy
"The terror of Tieton"
"The 1965 911 of cyclekarts"

DoinItWrong Avatar
DoinItWrong Anthony Gurganious
Oak Harbor, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1929 CycleKart Italian "Fiat Gipsy"
I knew, based on the performance of the kart, that this was eventually going to be something we'd have to defend.

Guys, we are 100% legal. Here is our exact parts list:

Predator 212 Hemi from Harbor Freight. - $100
Conical Air Filter & Adapter
18lb valve springs to prevent float
8 degree advanced aluminum flywheel with small fan
Bored .625 Honda OHV Carb with whatever jets came in it
Header and Muffler
1 range hotter spark plug
10W 30 oil
92 octane pump gas
The governor and low oil shutoff has been removed
We run the stock gravity-feed fuel tank with no pump
Our gearing is a 10 tooth front and a 54 tooth rear for the Grand Prix and 44 tooth rear for the GB and CC.
We run the 40/41 chain
Our CVT is using the red spring.
Our rear tires are 21" tall OD with street tread

We heat wrapped our exhaust all the way to the tip and located its exit outside the tail, and our air filter pulls fresh air from outside the tail.

Our car weighed in at 230lbs. Magic Man weighs 190, and I'm a hefty 220.

There is no real secret to our success. I know there will still be doubts and suspicions, but that is exactly the setup we ran. Because of how well we performed, I asked Magic Man if he objected to our holding an engine setup demo next year in the warehouse for everyone. He has agreed. We will arrive with a new 212 in the box and our hop up parts, and we will assemble for all to see.

I have not touched the car other than to wash the orchard off it since it's been home. It even now has a flat right front tire. If anyone wants to come out and take a look, they're welcome. Hell, I'll have cold beer here waiting for you. Also, we plan to go to the dirt oval track in 2 weeks, and the same setup will still be on the car. If anyone wants to see it there, again...they're welcome to look at anything they want.

As for the GB, I tried not to be an a-hole and not cut anyone off. The 44 tooth rear sprocket was a gamble for us. We never had it on the car before that race, and we thought it was going to be excessively sluggish off the line and after the hairpin. Obviously, we were wrong about that. The CVT made up for it. During the first two laps, I kept checking over my shoulder expecting to see the GN or someone else closing in. Honestly, it wasn't until the last lap that I was even sure anyone wasn't going to catch me.

I want to say it again: Our car is 100% inside the rules, and I welcome any one of you to come take a look or take a drive or whatever you like.



El Diablo (Anthony Gurganious)
1/2 Owner
1/2 Builder
1/2 Driver
1929 Fiat Gipsy
Team Captain: Team Doin' It Wrong



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-09 11:47 PM by DoinItWrong.

refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
There are several thing going on here guys. The car is very light - 50 pounds lighter than many of the other cars. A 280 pound car is at an extreme disadvantage when running against a 230 pound car. Next, the engine has been upgraded to allow higher revs, has a better than stock carb, better breathing, etc., etc.

And then it was running 4.4-1 final gearing, which I believe is considerably higher than what everyone else was running. What makes this all work in my opinion is the CVT. Continuously variable gearing! The CVT allows the engine to stay on the power band from the slowest car speed to the highest car speed.

It works. Watch the video for proof. grinning smiley

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Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
Justin
I recall our conversation Saturday evening when you were explaining what you were doing and you have left out the issue with the master link. To be with in Anthony's full disclosure I think that is the key to your success would you care to explain here? I think it was something with duct tape and silicone. Just stirring the pot. LOL
Al



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-09 04:56 PM by Notso-Chinsee.

DoinItWrong Avatar
DoinItWrong Anthony Gurganious
Oak Harbor, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1929 CycleKart Italian "Fiat Gipsy"
Hahaha!

The master link issue was caused by the 54 tooth sprocket. Our chain is I think a 40, and I think the 54 tooth sprocket is a 41. Whatever it is, the sprocket was thin enough to allow the chain to slop from side to side, causing the chain to hit the CVT backing. It kept bending our master link clip and it kept trying to pop off. We tried safety wire, and that just came off too easy. We tightened the chain some and used a little sliver of duct tape and some silicone on the clip, and that seemed to work for the 54 tooth. The 44 tooth sprocket was thicker, and the chain fit it much much better. There was significantly less slop.

The night that we swapped sprockets, we had consumed a few too many to be sly, but we were trying to get the new sprocket on without giving away our plan for the GB. So we though it funny to state that we were working on the master link. Never mind the new sprocket laying on the floor and the grinder being used to cut the new chain to length. It wouldn't really have mattered, since we were so obvious about it. And Doug is easily the most soft spoken and polite crap talker of all time. He was all in my head while I was trying to swap sprockets, and he definitely had me convinced that we were making a mistake. The next morning, I woke up with a slight hangover and had to go over all my work to make sure I hadn't screwed something up that would knock us out of the race. To my surprise, I had tightened all the bolts, lined everything up, and overall did a good job. I just forgot the master link duct tape and silicone. I put that on right before MM drove it to the GB start grid.



El Diablo (Anthony Gurganious)
1/2 Owner
1/2 Builder
1/2 Driver
1929 Fiat Gipsy
Team Captain: Team Doin' It Wrong

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Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
Now all the facts our out and that is full disclosure. With the teasing aside a big thanks to both of you for showing us what can be done by putting your thoughts into action.



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
Nah, nobody's accusing you guys of cheating. Just sayin', such a
radical difference in performance is like dangling a carrot in front of
a rabbit. Some of us would sure like to get similar performance from
our machines so we could at least have a fighting chance. Most of those
Gitterville boys have been at it for near a decade and still "got left in the
dust."
Heck, it could't be much fun driving thru the county side all by your self.
Seems like it would be much more exciting if you were dicing it out on the
back roads with a fellow driver, wouldn't it??
230 lbs with a 190 lb or 220 lb driver still tips the scales at 420 or 450 lbs.
And there are many 280 lb Karts with 150 or 170 lb drivers. I hope to be one
of those, cuz I hover right around 150 lbs after my morning constitutional.
That's the long walk me and me mutt take down by the creek at sun up.
and I'm hoping to bring the Riley in under 300 lb. Lets see.....300 lb kart
and 150 lb driver should put me in the same class as a 230 lb kart
with a 220 lb driver, right?
Point being.....we can eliminate the weight as a factor in many cases
of the competition.
dg

DoinItWrong Avatar
DoinItWrong Anthony Gurganious
Oak Harbor, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1929 CycleKart Italian "Fiat Gipsy"
All I could think was to not screw up.

We're proud of what we made. Mostly, we're proud of the endurance the car had. After breaking so much last year, it was nice to be able to help out this year with the event instead of trying to keep the car running.

What I listed is everything. If anyone has questions, we're happy to answer and help out wherever we can. We really are a couple guys who just got lucky that we got our configuration right.

Now if we can just make it look good enough to be worthy of the concours.



El Diablo (Anthony Gurganious)
1/2 Owner
1/2 Builder
1/2 Driver
1929 Fiat Gipsy
Team Captain: Team Doin' It Wrong



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-09 11:49 PM by DoinItWrong.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
I will introduce another factor that has thus far been ignored, but as an eyewitness, I must chime in.
Justin and Anthony not only had a hot setup, but they were willing to drive it faster than I believe many
others would, even given the same equipment. The Bennett was also not necessarily populated by the fastest cars this year. There were a few, but with assertive driving at the start catching a heavy backfield by suprise, and by being willing to let that tall gearing unload from the top of the course all the way down
brought them to speeds I think might cause many to blanch. Add to that, they very clearly were taking the 90 deg. right hander I was marshalling at a higher speed. It was just a fast kart being driven hard, but not against a Peugeot or Monocar. It would have been much closer.
We'll have to see.
As for me, I am not even in the hunt without brake and steering enhancements. But I have a
whole year to carry them out, among other things. Beauty contests are nice and all, but...

DoinItWrong Avatar
DoinItWrong Anthony Gurganious
Oak Harbor, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1929 CycleKart Italian "Fiat Gipsy"
Wow Dave. You really are good at that. Thank you for that. We look forward to seeing you in Stanwood.



El Diablo (Anthony Gurganious)
1/2 Owner
1/2 Builder
1/2 Driver
1929 Fiat Gipsy
Team Captain: Team Doin' It Wrong

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Have to fix a little cracked bodywork (courtesy of the Campbell meatgrinder)
and I be ready for some flat tracking.

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