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Detroit locker style rear axle?

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
How about using a standard keyed drive wheel and brake on one side and a roller clutch bearing for the other wheel?


In reply to # 25735 by CmdBentaxle Timken makes them. They're called clutch release bearings. They lock one way, roll free the other.

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Little French Avatar
Little French Silver Member Fabrice B
PUY DU LAC, Charente maritime, France   FRA
Hi Rick,

I think it would be possible but on one condition !! It will take turns always on the same side .....
A bit like the track of Nascar ....grinning smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-02 02:28 PM by Little French.

Bitalli Vitaliy Koshovyy
Bathgate, West Lothian, UK   GBR
I think freewheeling differential is a neat idea that might work for a cyclekart. The sealed clutch bearings are quite inexpensive here in the U.K. However as Denny mentioned there is no perfect solution.

IMHO there are at least 3 issues: 1 no reverse. 2 while turning under power the outer faster rotating wheels is not engaged and the powe transferred to the inner slower rotating wheel which has less grip due to the weight shift. You can argue that once the inner wheel start to lose grip standard diff has the same problem, but clutch differential engagement principle makes it worse. 3 clutch design inherent flaw is inability to balance the power between wheels like a standard differential can (provided equall grip between wheels) and it's more of the switch between the single drive wheels then continuous engagement, unless both wheels are equall in diameter. For instance one with higher pressure will be the driving wheel and the faster rotating lower tyre pressure will "overdrive" the shaft speed and will not contribute to the party.

Having said that I still love the idea because under high power the behaviour of the clutch diff changes and once the lower grip wheel slips and accelerates and the rotation speed equalised it becomes a locked diff so very interesting.

I am afraid I managed to put you all to sleep with my hypotheticall rant.

Kind regards Vitaliy

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, Michigan, USA   USA
Yes, I thought about it more and realized the axle would only turn easily towards the side with the clutch. Oh well....winking smiley

In reply to # 25762 by Little French Hi Rick,

I think it would be possible but on one condition !! It will take turns always on the same side .....
A bit like the track of Nascar ....grinning smiley

Little French Avatar
Little French Silver Member Fabrice B
PUY DU LAC, Charente maritime, France   FRA
Hi Rick,

For a long time I am looking for simple ideas for amateur builders! Unfortunately there are few solutions ...confused smiley
To my knowledge, nobody has tried the ball diff at our scale, but I think it is a very conceivable solution, cheap, and simple to build ...


Attachments:
Projet différentiel à billes.jpg    37.6 KB
Projet différentiel à billes.jpg

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
I built one of those ball diffs about 25 years ago, for a powered wheelbarrow I made. From memory I used 6mm plate for the discs, but still had problems with it distorting when enough pressure was applied to get it to drive reliably. Don't recall the full details of the construction, lost in the depths of what passes for my memory.

Chris

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, New York, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
Hey, you could always fit TWO engines, one driving each wheel, to avoid the differential! cool smiley
More seriously, how about slipclutches on each wheel, oriented so that the outside wheel in a turn got more pressure, and the inner on got less and could freewheel only then?
Here in NY, we run on dirt, so a solid axle is not a problem anyway (plus, we get better scenery and softer landings when we crash).



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 25780 by jcny Hey, you could always fit TWO engines, one driving each wheel, to avoid the differential! cool smiley
More seriously, how about slip-clutches on each wheel, oriented so that the outside wheel in a turn got more pressure, and the inner on got less and could freewheel only then?
Here in NY, we run on dirt, so a solid axle is not a problem anyway (plus, we get better scenery and softer landings when we crash).
=========================
... and, not to mention The Bridge!
Ciao,
Zoran
P.S.: I am not sure that suggestion for an arrangement of slip-clutches could be practical? I think that they are the same kind as sprag-clutches (or bicycle free-wheel system) - issues that we discussed some time ago... Tried that on different project and it didn't work - always outside wheel has power transmitted to ground, and all of it, not just more than inside wheel - at curves and corners. Of course, that is on a dry hard surface, a slippery surface or off-road is a different thing.



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

DOMIT William Smith
Fort Worth, Texas, USA   USA
Why not move them to the end of the axle (place the freewheel next to the wheel hub.) This would allow the use of a solid axle.

Here is a related thought: How about a simple, light, inexpensive 2 speed automatic transmission?

It would need a jackshaft with a sprocket driving a) a sprocket with a lower tooth count, and b) a centrifugal clutch with a second sprocket with a higher tooth count. This jackshaft should probably be driven 1:1 from the TAV sprocket.

Those would drive the axle via (respectively) a) a sprocket mounted to a freewheel- this would be the lower ratio (more teeth), and b) a solid mounted sprocket with a higher ratio (less teeth.)

When the jackshaft reached the proper rpm to engage the centrifugal clutch, it would effectively "shift" to high gear, with the lower ratio "freewheeling."

(Anyone for the top speed challenge?) grinning smiley

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Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Oh DOMIT
Way too technical for me.
This intrigue with CyclcleKarts is their simplicity!
Here we go......trying to complicate them, which might just make them less appealing?????
Woody

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Absolutely, Woody!
By the way I finally keyed my free wheel up at Stanwood.
Never going back to one wheel, Paved or dirt!
Goes and stops better and straighter, but doesn't turn quite as tight.
So,what! Don't know what took me so long.

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
In reply to # 26055 by CmdBentaxle Absolutely, Woody!
By the way I finally keyed my free wheel up at Stanwood.
Never going back to one wheel, Paved or dirt!
Goes and stops better and straighter, but doesn't turn quite as tight.
So,what! Don't know what took me so long.
You looked in control and at ease on that dirt oval.
How would you rate the experience.
And what did you learn?
Woody

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Well, I don't want to hijack this topic. So catch me over on the Stanwood
thing.

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 25790 by moto-klasika
In reply to # 25780 by jcny Hey, you could always fit TWO engines, one driving each wheel, to avoid the differential! cool smiley
More seriously, how about slip-clutches on each wheel, oriented so that the outside wheel in a turn got more pressure, and the inner on got less and could freewheel only then?
Here in NY, we run on dirt, so a solid axle is not a problem anyway (plus, we get better scenery and softer landings when we crash).
=========================
... and, not to mention The Bridge!
Ciao,
Zoran
P.S.: I am not sure that suggestion for an arrangement of slip-clutches could be practical? I think that they are the same kind as sprag-clutches (or bicycle free-wheel system) - issues that we discussed some time ago... Tried that on different project and it didn't work - always outside wheel has power transmitted to ground, and all of it, not just more than inside wheel - at curves and corners. Of course, that is on a dry hard surface, a slippery surface or off-road is a different thing.
===========================
Hello,
Maybe not of big importance, because only I used it until now, and on a different vehicle than CycleKart is, but must write CORRECTION to my previous statement:

INSIDE WHEEL SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE ALL THE POWER TRANSFERED TO A ROAD, AND OUTSIDE WHEEL NOTHING AT ALL - JUST DOING FREE-WHEELING TURNING FASTER THAN POWERED AXLE! EVEN, AT THE SLIGHTEST CURVE ON GOOD PAVEMENT!

Zoran

P.S.: John, two engines with two CVT transmissions - each one set for one wheel?
Technically possible - and legally too, but only if you could cover that with legalized "STAGE ONE MODIFICATION" of an engine, meaning + 100% of power?



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-19 08:21 AM by moto-klasika.

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, New York, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
Zoran, you ARE coming to the 2nd Northeast meet, here in NY, on Sept 2, right? Nick has prepped a terrific dirt track!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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