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15UqoEcl Avatar
15UqoEcl John Smith
Bay City, Michigan, USA   USA
Just so you know, I'm not ignoring any of the responses. At the moment, though, it feels like too much effort to quote, reply, and/or debate the suggestions. Thanks, though.

The guy from the electric racing organization never did get back to me, despite me sending a follow-up e-mail. Now that winter's creeping up and things are dreary, I'm finding it hard to scrounge up the energy to continue the project, even though I know that it's in my best interest to see it through as soon as possible. Lots of troublesome non-CycleKart issues converging now, much like I anticipated, so it looks like I'm just going to have to find a way to get myself motivated and power through them.

I can drop $1,500 into the Golden Motor products and probably get it up and running fairly soon -- no big deal -- but I have that nagging feeling that the moment I send out that check, that's when I'll discover some miraculous alternative that I should've bought instead! Can someone here put me onto which person or people I should contact to learn their experience with said products, specifically how well the batteries hold up? I guess I'm looking for a bit of reassurance that the $900 battery will be a solid enough choice, and not burn up after just a few months' use.

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Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, Illinois, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
John, don't mean to be a downer, however after looking back
over the past month or so of replies it appears that you are
trying to dig a hole in the sand. I'm a realist and just aiming
at practicality. To the question in your mind,
".....that's when I'll discover some miraculous alternative"......
that would be a $99 Harbor Freight 212cc engine and
you're up and running. If you indeed want a simple, inexpensive
means of transportation that you can build yourself at home
in your garage, then the very basic cycle kart concept is the
absolute cheapest way to go.
Electrics aren't now and probably won't be cheaper or
practical or easier to assemble in the near future and probably
not in our life time. They remain in the realm of the experimentalist
and that never has been an inexpensive or smooth road to travel.
Denny G

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Well said Denny!
My take on this, is that it is only another dream project that was destined never to happen anyway???
But we all love to dream!
Woody



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-12 10:18 AM by Woodysrods.

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15UqoEcl Avatar
15UqoEcl John Smith
Bay City, Michigan, USA   USA
For the sake of keeping this forum civil, I shall attempt to ignore Mr. Woods' attempt at goading me, and focus on the topic....

Gasoline, oil, hoses, hose clamps, carburetor, air filter, fuel tank, spark plug, torque converter, and probably other components I've not even heard of -- versus a motor, battery, controller, and wires? Yes, the current standard is inexpensive and ubiquitous, but it's also noisy, stinky, and requires regular maintenance and replacement parts. Though going electric may be sacrificing driving distance and the ability to get repairs done in a neighbor's garage, I believe I'm also gaining mechanical reliability and nearly eliminating maintenance tasks.

Naturally, I would enjoy the "vroom" of an engine, but it is something that I'm choosing to forgo, even though doing so will triple the cost. I know that probably doesn't make sense in a forum about homemade race cars, but I do have my reasons. The only thing I'm really concerned about is whether the batteries from Golden Motor actually do have some kind of longevity problem, or if that was just a rival salesman trying to get me to buy his product instead. That being said, I'm done apologizing for wanting to go electric.

RROLDSX Randy R
Delta, BC, Canada   CAN
Sounds like you are pretty much up to speed on what you want. I hope you got all the assistance you needed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-12 05:23 PM by RROLDSX.

15UqoEcl Avatar
15UqoEcl John Smith
Bay City, Michigan, USA   USA
How delightfully passive-aggressive!

Edit: I suppose that me having said it that way was, ironically, somewhat passive aggressive. It would have been better to have said "Passive aggression is not welcome."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-12 12:57 PM by 15UqoEcl.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
How about neither passive, nor aggressive. Just an honest analysis.
John, It is clear that what you want to end up with is a small, homebuilt electric utility vehicle that can be used on public roads, but is not subject to license requirements.
The trouble is, you have come for assistance to a forum where almost the entire participating membership is focused on the building and running of scaled down replicas of old racing cars, developed around a specific formula. The engines and CVTs we favor are very inexpensive and reliable.
Not 1/3 the cost of EP, but between 1/5 to 1/7 the cost. This is responsible for the fact that there are very few electric cyclekarts, to this point. I personally know of only 4, and while those pioneers probably
could offer some insight, none of them really contribute here. I do know they have spent a lot and tinkered considerably.
So you are sort of stuck with a bunch of dudes here who don't really get where you are going, or the point of how you are trying to get there.

By all means, stick around. But considering your goal, would a site more specifically focused on E/Vs be more helpful?

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15UqoEcl Avatar
15UqoEcl John Smith
Bay City, Michigan, USA   USA
In reply to # 26874 by CmdBentaxle ... while those pioneers probably could offer some insight, none of them really contribute here.
Thanks for the clarification. Though I knew there were regional events, I had assumed that the overall number of enthusiasts was such that everybody knew everybody, either through said events or via the Internet. Add the further assumption that somehow they must all congregate here, and that's probably why I felt like people were holding back.

I would disagree on the passive-aggressive tone, however. A couple of times before in this thread, I noticed that the response seemed to be a polite way of telling me to shut up and get lost. Such responses tend to stand out as perfunctory platitudes concluding with a "Hope you found what you were looking for" that's just dripping with sarcasm. (And though I regret losing my cool over it, I didn't come close to spewing the curse- and threat-laden venom that I felt like saying back.) Of course, I could be wrong in interpreting the tone as intentional; it might be a generation gap, a culture gap, or some subtlety that I've overlooked. Perhaps the DIY culture is one of rough-and-tumble grease monkeys, and so, to them, I come off as a whiny complainer! smiling smiley

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi John
Sorry if I offended you, and got your dander up enough that you wanted to swear at me (Thanks for holding back)
But yes, this might not be the perfect place for you, and you may have nailed it in your last post.
Once you have walked the walk you may feel differently.
Good Luck with you endeavours.
Brian

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RROLDSX Randy R
Delta, BC, Canada   CAN
“Perhaps the DIY culture is one of rough-and-tumble grease monkeys, and so, to them, I come off as a whiny complainer! “ For someone who requested help, and got a lot of it, then proceeded to demonstrate how much smarter he thinks he is I found this distasteful. Especially under the circumstances presented. I really felt no ill will towards you and sincerely hoped you got what you needed. I also feel you are the one “goading” in all honesty. You are correct, there is a lot of “dripping” but I can say it was not me. This is the last response I have to this post.

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
… … active-defense as respond to passive-aggression - like in football (real one, European)?

It seems to me that all of us should be sometimes less offensive, but less over-sensitive, too? If we think twice before write something and third time before press button “Post Message” - then shouldn't be problems? Then, we should realize that in such international hobby-forum there is not place for sarcasm, cynicism, evil jokes, weird humor? Then, it wouldn't be too heavy or painful to be well-minded, polite, cultural, helpful, optimistic, positive? At least most of us, including myself, was learned so in our mostly long lives – in our families, kindergartens, schools, armies, professional careers – and finally in most clubs and forums where we are members?
--- ---
So, back to the main matter: “John's Request for Assistance” (we should better say something that could be translated as “appeal”) - to build the simplest kart, powered by batteries and electric-motor... For sure, it has place here in “Custom Karts” forum, knowing that now even in “standard” CycleKarts we could find everything and anything, gasoline or electric powered, four or three wheels, replicas of veteran cars, hot-rods, cycle-cars, GP racers from vintage era of from fifties, with or without TAV (CVT), made in various dimensions and weights, with engines at rear (mostly) or at front, with single-wheel or two-wheels power and brakes, rear suspension or not, built by amateurs or top-level professionals with factory teams and official factory drivers, professionally organized races and show-offs, or dust/mud family and friendly racing, and so on...
--- ---

John explained us WHAT he wants to build (must build?) and even WHY he wants that. He only does not know HOW! If we could help – we should try that, if we couldn't – let him alone with his dreams/plans giving him moral support and encourage him to build his dream machine. He jumped into unknown waters and tried to swim the best he could, and we could or not help him in that. Only, useless and irrational is to suggest him not to jump (he already did that), or to use a bicycle to ride around river/lake or cross a bridge on horseback, or to buy a monthly ticket for city public transport. That could be more practical and more economical – but, he does not want that.
--- ---
So – electrification of road-going light kart – why not?
That is more socially and legally accepted way than to use the industrial/agricultural engine and garden-machine transmission. Should it be 5-7 times more expensive? Not necessary: for around 1000 $$$ he could get electric propulsion with forward-neutral-reverse drive, efficient braking (regenerative), even parking brake (didn't know for that until yesterday), with differential action if he uses one engine for each of rear wheels... Gasoline powered kart with such performances shouldn't be so much cheaper.
--- ---
So, John: visit these web-sites, where you would find all answers, theoretical and practical that you need, interesting forum and even custom-built kits just for you!

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/
https://support.electricscooterparts.com/support/solutions
https://support.electricscooterparts.com/support/discussions

From experts you could get advice for the best solution, considering the total weight of kart, desired speed, range and so on. In kit-compete you would get everything that you need for propulsion, including electric-motor, batteries, controller, throttle, all switches, wires, lights, transmission, brakes, and even wheels! All that could be installed for a weekend, as LEGO bricks, because everything is labelled and prepared for quick installation.

General advice: do not wait too long for the best solution (there is not such a thing in real life), or for a better situation and better conditions (they are mostly worse). Build what you want and could NOW, no need for perfection, everything could be changed later. If you start a project to realize your dream, you would be one in a hundred that did that, and when you finish it (and you will!), you would be between 50 % hobbyist that did that, including Cyclekartistes presented here in Club...

I would start construction of rolling chassis after buying kit-complete!

Too much for one evening at one place, but...

Ciao to all,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Silver Member Dave D
Federal Way, Washington, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Well said, Zoran.
That electric scooter site does appear a better source of plug and play optoins for the
do it yourself builder. I should say that the $1500 figure is more in line with what I've heard for E/P
kart systems. So I was using that as a comparison to a Predator 212/ Tav 30 clone combo which can be
had for around $200 U.S.
Still, $500 less would make it more attractive.

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Thanks Randy
I too am finished with this "Crap" thread.
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade!
No further response from me either!!!!!
Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-14 11:09 AM by Woodysrods.

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. P.
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 26885 by CmdBentaxle Well said, Zoran.
That electric scooter site does appear a better source of plug and play options for the do it yourself builder. I should say that the $1500 figure is more in line with what I've heard for E/P
kart systems. So I was using that as a comparison to a Predator 212/ Tav 30 clone combo which can be had for around $200 U.S.
Still, $500 less would make it more attractive.
==============================================================================================

Hello, Dave!
As John said:
“I want something just big enough to carry the groceries home at 10-20 mph. A moped won't do, and a car involves too much red tape."
- similar is my plans (still dreams) to have light quadricycle (not the racing CycleKart), for cruising across and around Bern. For such class of vehicle, due to European Union Directives, except electric-power – the only possibility is Diesel engine up to 4 Kilowatts of power (around 5.3 HP), or gasoline engine up to 49 cc. For sure that any gasoline/diesel engine should be cheaper and simpler solution – but, not in real circumstances here (standards and attests, pollution, noise...).

As 1/2 of the city of Bern had areas with restriction of speed up to 30 km/hour ~ 18.6 MPH or even 20 km/hour ~ 12.4 MPH - higher speed is not necessary. Electric quadricycle could be used in pedestrian zones with temporarily restriction of speed up to 8 km/hour ~ 4.9 MPH, and even at closed spaces. It could be used semi-legal on bicycle lanes and paths, if driven no-fanatically. (pensioner style in all). It should be classified and registered as a moped (on four wheels)!

From experience of some other people that build similar vehicles, for such drive would be enough 2 electric motors, each one with power between 0.5 and 1.0 Kilowatts.

http://www.szott.com/carriage/carriage.html

http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Voiturette/index.html


When/if I started such project, I would build simplest and lightest quadricycle, similar to one that John explained – in a style of classic buckboards, without suspension at all, wooden platform chassis elastic in all directions. With two of us onboard, total weight shouldn't be higher than 300 kg ~ 660 pounds (some of the CycleKarts with a driver have that). With my experience about the use of small autos, total weight is more important for starting at traffic lights and for decent acceleration, then for driving uphills too (not too much of them in the city) than to maximum or cruising speed.

So, it is possible to have such kit-completes for around 1000 $$$, maybe even more because not all of the components should be bought in a pair.
Transport in the USA is cheap, but for Swiss is a killing issues for a project. Reserve solution should be to used smaller motors (not a big difference in price, but everything else is cheaper and lighter), kept the pedals and use it as so-called “pedelec” vehicle. Then, I could stay under 1000 $$$ including transport from the USA!

Ciao,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-18 04:48 PM by moto-klasika.


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Rhysn Rhys N
New Zealand   NZL
As you have wisely said Zoran, there is probably a better site that here where most folks are deeply involved in making things with the intent of going fast,
John asked for assistance, and most of us leaped in with assumptions. And most of us were wrong.
The folks who don't either post on this forum, or don't even visit any more have been "forced" to make that decision as a result of some of the aggression they have either personally received, or have read what has been directed at their friends. I know a good number of folks who won't come on here, and I would take their advice and knowledge long before some who do post.
I put up the figures I know for the Golden Motor, and I made an inaccurate assumption that you would want power. Those who have actually built the cycle karts (of which I personally know) have used either 3 or 5 kw motors. They have done the job required, but for a different type of vehicle, and with substantially higher cost than what Zoran has posted.
Your small vehicle may get the performance you are looking for with the package Zoran has suggested. I suspect nobody who visits the forum has any knowledge to offer much help for you.
I do not support that you have been slanged off as you have. On behalf of those (probably a good number) who feel as I do, please accept our apologies.

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