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Custom Options

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Neto Ernest B
Berlin, Ohio, USA   USA
I'm curious about how different custom options would be ranked in importance/interest by the folks here.

Examples:
true differential action
reverse
rear suspension with minimal unsprung weight
front engine configuration
extra low range for hill-climb competition
over-drive for higher top speed

I'll stick my neck out here a bit, and say that the first 5 of these are more important to me than a higher top speed. I have never been to any of the actual competitions, so I don't know if there is any hill climbing included in any of the courses, but it did play a part in a lot of early auto competitions way back years ago. I live in a really hilly part of Ohio, and if I keep my top speed at 25 MPH and below, I'm pretty sure I can operate one on most of the back roads with an SMV sign w/o fear of the Law. The lower range gearing would be handy there, too, and reverse & the maneuverability you gain with a differential would make it more adaptable to that setting. The rear suspension is appealing to me because of an old back injury, from when I was young & stupid. (And because these back roads around here are dirt, or gravel at best, and the hills allow for a lot of washouts. I do a lot of driving on these back roads, and even with a vehicle, I am often forced to stay below 20 - 25 MPH, because of the steep grades, narrow tracks, sharp turns, and loose stone. So I'd need pretty good brakes too, of course.)

The deal with the front engine configuration is (other than the weight distribution factor) that I like a longer hood look more than the long tail.

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gearguy Charles Schultz
Oil City, Pennsylvania, USA   USA
I have included the first three in my design for a T-32 "tank" homage. If I were starting over I think I would use a pit bike motor/transmission with reverse built in. Strays from the "formula" a bit more but once you are "off the golden path" you might as well go for the cost/space savings. Power output is about the same as a Honda Clone from

akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
My build (once I finally get it started again) ticks a few of your boxes.



I'm basing it on the Schasche racecar.

I have sourced a Bernard Moteurs W110 engine, which would be mounted like the original.

I have stripped the top end off a seized pitbike engine. I will replace the crank with a machined axle. and add a sprocket to the end. This gives me a manual clutch and 4 gears.

Straight axle, 1 wheel drive. Because of the configuration I can have a rear axle with (a little) suspension travel, provided by quarter elliptic springs.

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Torro123 Avatar
Torro123 René Wesselius
Amsterdam, NH, Netherlands   NLD
Front engine and rear suspension


Attachments:
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SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, Arizona, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
Rene,
That is fantastic.

Do you have any photos of how you are connecting the front engine to the rear?

Steve



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat

Torro123 Avatar
Torro123 René Wesselius
Amsterdam, NH, Netherlands   NLD
In reply to # 26706 by SteveV Rene,
That is fantastic.

Do you have any photos of how you are connecting the front engine to the rear?

Steve

Steve you can see here how it was done......http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/read.php?2,22321

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, Ohio, USA   USA
Here's another: less sensitive steering.
Rack & Pinion
See post # 3 for hand drill gears
[Post # 16 (page 2: The steering crown wheel has 80 teeth the pinion 24. Therefore ratio 3.33:1
the length of drop arm (centre of crown wheel to drag link rose joint 3" or 75mm)
but more important lock to lock is almost (3/4" short at circumference of s/wheel)1 complete turn of steering wheel. Cheers, Geoff] (More discussion later in that thread about using angle grinder gears.)

I imagine there are other ideas here, but these are the ones I recall seeing since joining here recently.
My latest idea is from the gear box of a Maytag washing machine. The over all ratio of this set of gears is 9.8:1. (49 cogs to 5 on the drive gear) Of course you don't rotate the large gear all the way around in a steering setup - I figure you could use, what, 1/4 to 1/3 of the gear?
I checked the lock to lock on our 2009 Dodge Journey, and it is about 3 1/2 turns. From what I gather, the ideal for racing cars is around 2 to 2.5 turns lock to lock. (Not from experience - just from reading.)
Here are a couple of pictures of the Maytag gears. (I know there's some weight here, but couldn't a person cut about 2 thirds of the gear off?
(The first picture shows the gear in the transmission case, which would need to be replaced w/ something lighter & smaller. The 2nd shows the gear side of the large gear, w/ the drive gear setting on top of in in its correct position.) (For size reference, the shaft on the drive dear is 1/2" diameter, and the center bore in the large gear is 1".)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-02 04:54 PM by Neto.

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gearguy Charles Schultz
Oil City, Pennsylvania, USA   USA
The Maytag set is technically known as a face worm gearset. Similar to a regular worm arrangement except the teeth on on the side of the "wheel" instead of the outside diameter. Should have smooth action and be somewhat resistant to bumps being fed back into the steering wheel and driver's hands. Worm and sector steering was the preferred method before power steering became available and when roads were bad.

My sand rail rack and pinion has about a turn from lock to lock. The Schroeder cowl steering boxes in my vintage midgets were 8:1 worm gears. Ross and Franklin, traditional hot rod favorites, were the inspiration for the Schroeder design.

At less than $100 including the rod ends on the rack I can't see building my own steering box though. Some of the designs I have seen here do not inspire confidence but I am hampered by 46 years in the gear trade. My book on gears, An Introduction to Gear Design, is available for FREE download at my website: www.beytagear.com. It is intended for people just getting into gears and does not include any math.

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi Charles
This is the beauty of this Forum that has brought so many people with such diverse skills and knowledge together thru their common interest in "CycleKarts".
Thanks for Sharing!
It helps not to have to keep trying to re invent the wheel.
Good Roads
Brian

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Neto Ernest B
Berlin, Ohio, USA   USA
In reply to # 26710 by gearguy The Maytag set is technically known as a face worm gearset. Similar to a regular worm arrangement except the teeth on on the side of the "wheel" instead of the outside diameter. Should have smooth action and be somewhat resistant to bumps being fed back into the steering wheel and driver's hands. Worm and sector steering was the preferred method before power steering became available and when roads were bad.

My sand rail rack and pinion has about a turn from lock to lock. The Schroeder cowl steering boxes in my vintage midgets were 8:1 worm gears. Ross and Franklin, traditional hot rod favorites, were the inspiration for the Schroeder design.

At less than $100 including the rod ends on the rack I can't see building my own steering box though. Some of the designs I have seen here do not inspire confidence but I am hampered by 46 years in the gear trade. My book on gears, An Introduction to Gear Design, is available for FREE download at my website: www.beytagear.com. It is intended for people just getting into gears and does not include any math.

I am seriously "cash-challenged" for one thing. The other reason I had for looking for other options is that I intend to build with the engine up front, and also wanted cowl steering, partly because of the engine being there in the way, and partly for the look. Thanks much, though, for correcting my terminology. (You can tell I don't have much of any experience in this area - just learning. What I do have a good bit of experience with is making something out of something else that was intended for a completely different purpose. Learned it from my Grandpa, then used it a lot while I lived in a remote area of the Amazon, where you either made do with what you had, or paid several hundred dollars for a small plane to bring in what you needed. My wife appreciated it then, but now she just says I'm a pack-rat.) I am on your site, and I think I'm going to enjoy reading lots of this stuff. Thanks again!

Woodysrods Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi Neto
Repurposing things has its advantages for sure.
Can be useful, fun, and fulfilling!
But, it does have its place as well, and can sometimes cost more money and aggravation then going with the stuff that is available and saving that time and effort on repurposing something that "is not" available.
I am sure we can all come up with something that might work in place of a "wheel".......but why. They seem to work!
Now if I were to be building a front engine CK, I would run the small 11" rack mounted where it need to be in relationship to your front axle. But point the
input shaft straight up 90 degrees, then run whatever gear reduction combo of gears (one on the top of that input shaft and one on the end of your steering shaft) running back to your pillow block on the dash to attach your removable steering wheel.
That would leave plenty of clearance for your front mounted motor and you would have nothing exposed down the either side of your CycleKart.
Good Roads
Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-02 07:21 PM by Woodysrods.

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, Ohio, USA   USA
In reply to # 26715 by Woodysrods Hi Neto
Repurposing things has its advantages for sure.
Can be useful, fun, and fulfilling!
But, it does have its place as well, and can sometimes cost more money and aggravation then going with the stuff that is available and saving that time and effort on repurposing something that "is not" available.
I am sure we can all come up with something that might work in place of a "wheel".......but why. They seem to work!
Now if I were to be building a front engine CK, I would run the small 11" rack mounted where it need to be in relationship to your front axle. But point the
input shaft straight up 90 degrees, then run whatever gear reduction combo of gears (one on the top of that input shaft and one on the end of your steering shaft) running back to your pillow block on the dash to attach your removable steering wheel.
That would leave plenty of clearance for your front mounted motor and you would have nothing exposed down the either side of your CycleKart.
Good Roads
Brian

Thanks. I did look through one of the books Charles wrote (and kindly posted access to), and not the book itself, but the knowledge I gained in that little bit of time was sort of a wet blanket on some of my efforts to repurpose things. But I will say that I was not attempting to reinvent the gear - that's why I was looking for existing gear sets that would be strong enough, and give the desired ratio. I do think that the Maytag gear set may well fit this requirement. As to using rack & pinion, I realize that in many ways that would be considered the best option, certainly the most modern. But I like the looks of the cowl steering (exposed on the side), and this adaptation would not require reversing an existing steering sector, either.

As far as repurposing things, and 'reinventing the wheel' goes, speaking of wheels, I do not yet have experience with this, but from what I've read here some do feel that the motorcycle wheels being repurposed for these 4 wheeled Karts are not designed to deal with some of the stresses that they are exposed to in this different configuration. But I wouldn't try to build my own wheels because of that - I do not have the expertise to do so. But perhaps there are modifications that can be made that would lessen the effects of that problem, perhaps in the way the axle hubs are attached to the wheel centers. I can't point to the thread, but I believe I have read of others making some adjustments in this area, to help prevent the hub center from breaking out due to side thrust. That's what I find valuable as a new-comer to this hobby - being able to benefit from the years of experience the rest of you have already gone through. So I will always welcome input and push back to any of my ideas. Thanks again.

Rhysn Rhys N
New Zealand   NZL
For "re-purposing" have you considered Rider mower steering?

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, Ohio, USA   USA
In reply to # 26735 by Rhysn For "re-purposing" have you considered Rider mower steering?

I haven't looked at the steering apparatus used in garden tractors, or riding mowers with front engines, only those with rear engine configuration. On the Snapper mower I am using other parts from, it is the same design as that used on go carts. Those have very quick (sensitive) steering, and because of my experience (many years ago) of driving a go cart at 40 MPH, and from reading of the same type of experiences reported here regarding CycleKarts, I want to use something that will give an overall steering ratio with something like 2 or 3 turns lock to lock. I don't know for certain, but my assumption is that all riding mowers, because their top speed is much lower, are designed with the same quick steering response. I haven't driven a golfcart recently, either, but my recollection is that they also have pretty quick steering response.

I want more steering control, because I plan to drive this along the side of the roadway, and on the roadway of county & township roads. (This should be legal if I limit the top speed to 25 MPH, and have SMV signage on the back, with a flag on a pole, & flashing lights.) Because I live in more or less the middle of the largest Amish community in the States, many of our larger roads here have extra wide paved berms, and most motorists drive on the smaller unpaved roads with the expectation that there will be a horse & buggy over the next hill. There are still car-buggy accidents, of course, but the CycleKart design is also narrower than a buggy, and that will also make it less dangerous.

Rhysn Rhys N
New Zealand   NZL
Most varieties of riding mowers, as you call them, which I have worked on over the years have a gear and sector system, having said that I have worked on very few rear engined ones.
As I have driven many vehicles over the years (owned close on 200) my feeling is that properly engineered geometry of the steering system negates the "nervousness" which many associate with limited number of turns from lock to lock. Lots of turns is not dealing with the primary issue. Have a look at the thread I posted "An essay on suspension design". I know that a post was on there that said I was insulting, however another post, just today from Steve V on the thread about Minibikes and Cyclekarts in Arizona might be worth a look.
I recently was driving almost daily a road car which has under 1 turn lock to lock, as have over 290,000 (yes two hundred and ninety thousand) others. That's how many Austin 7 cars were made.

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