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1934 Scuderia Ferrari P3 Alfa Romeo: First Steps

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jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
I am beginning my 2nd CK. This one to be based on the 1934 Alfa Romeo of Team (Scuderia) Ferrari. Some early discussion began on the new members intro thread, pages 57 & 58. It's moving here now to be on topic.

First, answer's to Denny's most recent posting from there (quoted below my answers here):

1. Yes DG, I like the Peerless line. I'm actually looking at their 7100 differential&axle assembly: the span (track is ideal as shipped, but with the diff central, It would raise the seat too far. TBD (I could just make new halfshafts of unequal length...).

2. Yes, I most certainly will make Dubonnet front suspension! That's part of the motivation for this build! It's true the Chevy knee-action version was unreliable, but mostly due to natural rubber seals of the day and some poor design choices (for a section of those, see http://theoldmotor.com/?p=159035 ). Also, we don't need to incorporate the internal dampers they used (which require perfect oil fill in the shared chamber, hence the leakage issue), but rather we can go largely dry in the spring chamber, with the external friction dampers at the pivot, as used on this '34 Alfa race car (Very unlike the Chevy and a change from the Dubonnet patent drawings: see US patent 2160541 (Chevy is like Fig 1 & 2, but even MORE complicated. The Alfa used a simplified version of Fig.3, without the internal damper).

3. The rear axle of the Alfa was a simple beam, with live stubs at either end, driven through the two shafts off the diff. In this way, the torque tubes on those shafts doubled as radius rods (there is a ball joint at their front, and otherwise those reversed 1/4 ellipticals would wind themselves into a knot!), and the weight of the diff and the rods (well, half of that latter) becomes sprung weight, as the axle is very light without diff and half-shafts. Also, the driver can sit lower between the drive shafts. Together with the Dubonnet system up front (also minimum unsprung mass), this system was enough for the otherwise old design to win against more modern and powerful German cars in 1935. I will absolutely build simplified Dubonnet at the front - too cool not to do! For more detailed pix of these, go to this site: https://silodrome.com/alfa-romeo-p3/

4. The Mechanical StreetWalker and the ErrShip Arisatz were explorations of alternate means of locomotion (stepping, flapping - and currently I'm working on a mechanical worm drive...), nominally done as part of our local Steampunk Festival (the nation's largest - see https://www.enchantedtroy.com/ - good pix there, too). But actually, I just like to build things to see if they'll work (usually yes, after considerable effort).

jc

"First off John….I think we’re gonna get chased off ‘n this here thread, cuz….we taint
new members and we taint introducing ourselves. Maybe you should start a new thread
to further build on your ideas for this kart.
Yep, that P3 has been near the top of the list since day one, and that car in particular.
It's not enough that it’s such great eye candy but there is so much historical info about
it on the net. I made the mistake way back of showing it to Sweetie face and see
claimed it as her car.
“That’s the one you can make for me!”
You might want to look into this Peerless T-drive gearbox. I picked up a new one a
while back for less than a hundred bucks with the idea of using it for a future project.
See…I’m thinking front engine someday all so.
http://www.peerlessgear.com/EpiphanyWeb/getfile.aspx?ID=101
I hope you’re not thinking of using a “Dubonnet” knee action type front suspension. That’s
really a complicated design and even the automotive industry here in the states (GM)
abandoned it in the late 30’s because of the difficulties in the design. They tried it on the
Chevy’s for a few years and finally offered a beam axle retrofit package for those cars
built with it.
I don’t know for sure, Rhys would probably know better but from the documentation that
I’ve seen, the rear axle in that car appears to still be a straight beam axle. Even though it
had two sets of bevel gears independently driving the rear wheels I believe they were still
rigidly bolted together. Maybe I haven’t seen the right illustration as you describe it, but the
rear suspension still appears to be somewhat conventional using two parallel ¼ elliptical
leaf springs. I seem to remember several other cars from that or an earlier era that used
¼ elliptical springs, but they were mounted in front of the axle.
If you know of a photo or drawing of the car that further details the rear suspension I’d like
to see it John.
Oh…..and just what in the world were you thinking when you built those contraptions in the
photos??????
DG"



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:19 PM by Denny Graham.

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Isn't it astonishing that that little transverse tube can bear the vertical forces and torques of those rear springs?!?!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:19 PM by Denny Graham.

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Here are a few:

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C252513

https://www.prewarcar.com/235815-nice-lagonda-rolling-chassis
(or, if that site is down, this pic from it: https://www.prewarcar.com/pics/r2w-1200x800-caradverts/235815/235815-1527765450-7126233.jpg )

or this Bugatti (admittedly a scale model, but wow):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psiCBLSZ5SU/U0pjm6ho-bI/AAAAAAAAAng/FC2-fIVrZ1w/s1600/PSM+BUGATTI+59+Rolling+Chassis+n4.jpg

or a full scale Bug under restoration:
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/1926-bugatti-type-51-granrd-prix-car-1582377-details.aspx

or similar Mercedes 540K:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/cd/67/66/cd6766f4653a9e6eeeac0edc7051b9f3.jpg

here's a good restoration series on a '27 Delage (including a bare chassis):
https://autorestorations.co.nz/project/1927-delage-grand-prix/

gotta hunt - not to many out there!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:20 PM by Denny Graham.

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:20 PM by Denny Graham.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Glad to hear someone else wants to do some justice to this great car.
Here's a cool print to study.


Attachments:
0bb02ce8ab38c67288748b1bfefcebbf.jpg    47.9 KB
0bb02ce8ab38c67288748b1bfefcebbf.jpg

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:20 PM by Denny Graham.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
I just spent the last 15 minutes at Pur-Sang!
Thanks for the link.
I don't want to get distracted again until I get the Miller finished........but the Alfa awaits in the CycleKart Shop!
So I will follow along with this thread.
Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 11:33 AM by Woodysrods.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
I lifted that one from google images.
Never could find sheet 1.

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:21 PM by Denny Graham.

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
In reply to # 36851 by Denny Graham In the end....I think one could build a Cyclekart and call it an 8C Monza, p2 or p3-B and
no one would be the wiser. Unless of course....they got complicated like John is about
to do then you would have to label it an 1934 Scuderia Ferrari P3 Alfa Romeo.
My intention was to replicate a lot of the details of the Riley Monoposto and I soon
realized, that was quite impracticable for a Cyclekart. So, incorporating a handful
of the details and the general shape was enough. The main focus needs to be on
building a durable structure.
Denny G

Boom! This is it.

We ALL want to make something as closely resembling the original as our skills, and practicality, allow. Sometimes concessions must be made to honor the kart.

Sometimes, some of the more wizardly types figure out how to make a little miniature car!

Either way, I look forward to this kart. The kart interpretation of this car will be fascinating. Especially the re-rendering of the wild suspension in scale.

Peace,
Robert

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
I'll do my best! BTW, that drawing is of the standard Tipo B (P3) with standard leaf spring suspension all around. Look at the different systems on this car:



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)


Attachments:
Scuderia-Ferrari-Alfa-Romeo-Tipo-B-P3-3-740x494.jpg    20.5 KB
Scuderia-Ferrari-Alfa-Romeo-Tipo-B-P3-3-740x494.jpg

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Now that you mention it, I see what you mean John.
I guess if a guy want's the easier route, thats the one.

And Denny, you're spot on with that view. I like to think that
incorporating just enough of the characteristic elements of the
original to give it an authentic "feel", while keeping the underpinnings
basic and rugged, is what I'm trying for.

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