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1934 Scuderia Ferrari P3 Alfa Romeo: First Steps

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Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Yes, all of the pictures I have are obviously from the earlier Alfa P3 c/w eliptics back and front.
Brian

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Alfa_Romeo_Tipo_A_Grand_Prix_1931_PBC0254_Pebble_Beach_2010.jpg    45.2 KB
Alfa_Romeo_Tipo_A_Grand_Prix_1931_PBC0254_Pebble_Beach_2010.jpg

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jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Exactly, so, Robert! While I doubt I'd pass the entry exam for wizardhood; I am willing, even inclined, to push out of my comfort zone. I already have one, basic, running CK. Now for something a little different! And indeed there will be concessions to practicality. First example: the frame rails, though they will rise above the rear axle, will do so with discretely angled pieces, not a continuous curve as in the stamped full-size bits. Also, the front, fixed axle-crossmember will be of constant section, not beautifully tapered and upturned at the ends. And of course, I will be seven cylinders short of a full straight-8 powerplant.



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Brian, I LOVE the paint on that Pebble Beach one! The flowing pan with edge stripe over the black chassis rails looks Da Bomb!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
dg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-22 08:18 PM by Denny Graham.

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Hmmm... Well, I'll think on it. I'm building the frame from aluminum, which makes the bending and welding a bit more difficult, both to form and to finish. But maybe. My going-in plan called for just a limited mitre assembly for the rails. I wonder if the added curve is worth doing, as it's mostly covered by rear wheels and body (note the Scuderia Ferrari body is a bit wider than the standard Alfa version).



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)


Attachments:
BasicMitredFrameRail.jpg    3.2 KB
BasicMitredFrameRail.jpg

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
In reply to # 36860 by jcny Exactly, so, Robert! While I doubt I'd pass the entry exam for wizardhood; I am willing, even inclined, to push out of my comfort zone. I already have one, basic, running CK. Now for something a little different! And indeed there will be concessions to practicality. First example: the frame rails, though they will rise above the rear axle, will do so with discretely angled pieces, not a continuous curve as in the stamped full-size bits. Also, the front, fixed axle-crossmember will be of constant section, not beautifully tapered and upturned at the ends. And of course, I will be seven cylinders short of a full straight-8 powerplant.

Seven cylinders short! smiling smiley I have learned so much about old cars in the past few years. I find the variety and ingenuity remarkable.
I can’t wait to see you realize this, but it’s already been a delightful education. Thank you for all the linked info, too. And everyone. Fun to learn this type stuff.

I have finally (FINALLY!) figured out, and am buttoning up the pedal car, and so have officially begun gathering bits for cyclekart #1. I have one engine. Wait, what?! Hehe.

I’ve waffled a bit, as I have a few inspiration cars I’d like to emulate, and I’m learning about old cars all the time, but the first cyclekart (of a few, I hope, because we have room to “race” each other around here) has been decided.
Bloody Mary, because the kart can be built dead simple box style and be accurate. But, with two chained together 80cc motors sitting shotgun, because, well, accuracy. I mean, those big, snaky exhaust pipes gotta be attached to something, right? smiling smiley

I won’t sully up your thread any more about it, though, but will start my own when I close out the pedal car thread.

Good luck, and have fun.

Peace,
Robert

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
BTW, here's my first elevation sketch laid into the Alfa scaled to match the classic Stevenson -not detailed, just a guide to practicability. Something to think on.



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)


Attachments:
p3 dimensioned drawing 2-in grid w StephensonSchemaUpright.jpg    53.1 KB
p3 dimensioned drawing 2-in grid w StephensonSchemaUpright.jpg

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
So John
Have you given any thought to how you will get the power from the motor to the rear wheels
in such a narrow, low CK?
I have been thinking of using 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" frame rails (ducatti shipping crate size) and run a 1" solid
drive shaft inside the left hand frame rail, supported at each end by bearings, with a gear drive at both ends.
??????.........Just thinking about the obstacle (Driver) between front engined karts and the rear axle.
Brian

carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Brian, get off the MG and back on the cyclecart. Or, you won't make Tieton again.



S'all for now!

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Yes, Brian, I have. There are currently several options. Here are the ones I have considered:
1. longitudinal engine output, slightly to left (driven by centering engine mass), then angles intermediate shaft over to frame rail via two U-joints, passing under my left knee, and then back along the rail by drive shaft to a right angle gearbox at the axle. This version has the benefit of homage to the V-drive of the original. It rules out independent rear suspension as the gearbox is so eccentric (making one half shaft too short). Other downside, higher driveline loss than standard CK
1a. extend the drive shaft of (1.) beyond the rear axle to the right angle box, but with a sprocket on the box output and chain forward to the axle. This puts the box output nearer the midline of the vehicle and at the pivot center of a rear suspension like on the original car. Downside: even more driveline losses.
1b. run the driveline right down the center, under the pilot. Easy, allows free design of rear suspension, but lifts pilot's butt an inch or more. And kinda obvious.
2. transverse engine mount and direct guided chain drive to back axle, outside one frame rail (but guided and hidden in tubes to mimic original coolant lines). Cheap and easy, but uncertain risks of chain stretch and slap. Low drive losses.
3. vertical output engine, with long chain drive flat under the floor to a central differential box mid-rear-axle. Mid-range drive losses, easy fit to true differential. But, raises pilot's butt by an inch or more and requires double floor to keep chain clean. Same slack and stretch risk, too.
3a. Same as 3, but with a Vee or polyrib belt. These can tolerate filth and might allow omitting undertray.

So, none is perfect. Of these, I most would like to do #1, or something very close to it (maybe a second dummy drive shaft on the right, so the two can act as radius rods to locate the rear axle). I'd give up any significant rear suspension travel for that. The leading alternative is #2 - a much easier structure, and lighter, but that's a LONG chain!

I like your idea of tucking the shaft inside the rail. Still, I think I'll keep all my powertrain separable and accessible outside the structural bits. That said, true scale puts the rails just 18 inches apart, and my personal base structure is about 16. So if we use one inch for chain or shaft path (and cover), there's just room for miniscule padding either side. On the upside, no sliding around on corners!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi John
My frame is 20" wide (using standard 1" x 3" tubing) leaving 18" ID which was the same as the
original full sized Miller cockpit.......and leaving room for the standard 16" butt size (most chairs
or seat bottoms).
So it wouldn't take much to widen the frame enough to steal the extra 1 1/4 " required to run a
1" driveshaft along the side of the frame, if you don't want to hide the shaft in the frame rail.
We will all be watching with interested.
Good Roads
Brian

andrewroudny Avatar
andrewroudny andrew roudny
peterborough, ON, Canada   CAN
1939 CycleKart German "The Vulture"
Very interesting build indeed. If I may make a prediction: I think the steering is going to be more of a challenge than finding a way to get the power to the back wheels. I assume you're mimicking the steering rod on the outside of the car? It'll be interesting to see how it all fits around your feet. Looking at that scaled drawing you've made of the full-size person in a ck-sized Alfa, the space management will be paramount!

Also, I was wondering if we as a collective could make a pact concerning this thread. Can we avoid posting the ubiquitous "this cart is straying too far from the CK formula" comments? I think we can see that the intention is to push the limits of design while still staying within budget and size and power constraints (if that is in fact the intention). We know it's not a strictly Stephenson CK. That's the fun of it. It's not like John is working on a superior machine in order to trounce us all and get himself a drive in F1 for 2020. He just wants to build something interesting.

Anyway, that's all from me on the subject. Keep us updated!



"I never lose. I either win or learn.”
-Nelson Mandela

jcny Avatar
jcny Silver Member John Corey
Melrose, NY, USA   USA
1927 CycleKart French "Sam"
1934 CycleKart Italian "Tazio"
Yep. That's it, Andrew. I don't mind if purists object to deviations from the Formula, That's a valid opinion. Indeed, though, the idea here is to combine art and science within the $ and size constraints that will keep this competitive with Formula CKs. I expect the weight balance will improve handling over the tail-heavy Salmson (some mods underway there, too....), but I expect the high polar moment (masses not central, but toward the ends) will hurt cornering (by comparison, consider Jerry little Lotus with a very central mass location). These are OK tradeoffs.

As for steering: yes, with the engine up there, a drag link steering, like the original, is essential. My steering wheel axis will be almost horizontal, with a little right-angle gearbox right up under the hood above my feet. Not a big challenge, really, except for making tight joints with minimal freeplay.

This is fun!



Builder: John 'the Fierce' Corey, aka Lord Emile Salmson (or Lordy Miles On Some)

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