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CycleKart Spindles new and improved design

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SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, AZ, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
Hi All,
For my new frame build I decided to build my own set of spindles and make the mods that others have done to maximize the turning ability of the kart. Specifically I am incorporating King Pin Inclination or KPI (SAI) and Ackerman and Castor.

So to start, I am using the Asuza Weldment that most of us are using when we bought the Asuza go-cart spindles. I welded these to my new dropped axle with 14 degrees of [edit] KPI. The 3/4" cap head bolt was chamfered to match the radius of the tube it was to be welded to and was again set at 14 degrees of KPI [edit]. This 14 degrees will align the imaginary line that runs through the King Pin to the center of the tire patch. The 3/4" axle will be parallel to the ground.

I taped a piece of string to the center of the rear axle and taped the other end to the top of the King Pin bolt. This will tell me where the tie rod needs to attach to the steering arm. In my case it moved the attachment point 1" inboard from where the standard Asuza steering arm would have been. Then I made a paper template that was used to trace onto the steel plate that would be used to make the new steering arms.

It went to together pretty well. I hope to have the kart on its wheels in the next week. I am hopeful that all this effort will result in better steering and handling. I will report how it goes. I have a concern that I may get some binding at the tie rod.

Here is a video I made of how I did it.


Cheers



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-22 07:38 AM by SteveV.

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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
14 degrees of castor?
I found 12 way too much!
Your ackermann theory is different to the original, it should be the intersection of where the line of the kingpin meets the ground, projected to the steering arm. (that almost makes sense), but not the top of the kingpin bolt and steering arm. Like it or not, it's been my background for close on 55 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-21 01:46 PM by Rhysn.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Rhys
Steve may have slipped and said Caster when he was talking about "King Pin Inclination" ??confused smiley
In his video you will see he is planing 7 degrees of Caster.thumbs up
That 14 degree number is what both Al and I have to be needed for the Wheels we are using on these
CyleKarts.
Brian

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SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, AZ, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
Yes. Sorry typo.
14 degrees KPI [kingpin inclination]
7 degrees Caster.
0 degrees of Camber [edit]
I mix those up in my head.



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-22 07:40 AM by SteveV.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi Steve
You still may have it a little confused.
Camber is the angle of the "wheel" to the ground either positive or negative, and is usually somewhere
between 0 and 3 degrees........very seldom more!
So in recap you are dealing with three things when designing you front end:
Camber = vertical angle of the wheel too the ground
Caster = Angle of the axle (either forward or back)
King Pin Inclination= the angle of the king pin (usually the line thru to where the tire meets the ground)
Brian

SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, AZ, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
That's why I love this group, nobody called me an idiot....just confused....that is correct sir!

I edited my comments above to correct my instructions. I think I built it correctly, I just didn't have the terminology totally dialed in. Thanks fellas I really do appreciate the help. Cheers



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat

fatfendertruck Tony Sanchez
Show Low, AZ, USA   USA
Steve I am now building another frame. I will be following your steering geometry thread very closely.

SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, AZ, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
I may need to revise the spindle to tie rod attachment. It binds slightly at full lock. I need to get it on its wheels to see if it will be an issue...maybe.....maybe not.



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat

CaptJimmO Avatar
CaptJimmO Gold Member James J O'Donnell
Abbotsford, BC, Canada   CAN
1972 BMC Racecar "BUGSPRY"
2001 CycleKart Lightweight "Dag"
2006 Other Custom "BandAid Car"
Gentlemen, while searching for information on the Austin Seven, I cam across this little gem . . . . .



"just another colourful stitch in the rich tapestry of life"

CK Skunk Werks, Mission BC


Attachments:
Screen Shot 2019-01-24 at 10.20.07 PM.jpg    39.8 KB
Screen Shot 2019-01-24 at 10.20.07 PM.jpg

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
That's a cool bit of data to add to the Austin files. Thanks for posting that Jim.
Denny G
Sandwich, IL

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In reply to # 37724 by Rhysn Your ackermann theory is different to the original, it should be the intersection of where the line of the kingpin meets the ground, projected to the steering arm. (that almost makes sense), but not the top of the kingpin bolt and steering arm. Like it or not, it's been my background for close on 55 years.

I cannot recall now if it was here on this site, or on a Rat Rod site, or both, but some time ago I got involved in a discussion about this exact thing. It seems to me that the pivot point that is important is as you state - that is, where it meets the ground.
Some guys maintained that it was to be figured at the level at which an imaginary level line passes through the steering arm pivot point and the center of the kingpin. But it seems to me that it's all just 'imaginary' until the point at which it meets the road surface. But then the question is raised as to whether the steering arm pivot point is to be projected down to the road surface vertically, or if its line should follow the same angle as the King Pin (KPI).
Another line of thinking follows the idea that the imaginary line should pass through the king pin at the height of the steering arm pivot point. I think that if the assumption here is that the line passing through the steering arm pivot point should follow the same angle as the KPI, then all three of these theories may be the same. If this is not considered, then according to some of these theories, you could get different results simply by attaching the steering arm at some point either high or low, in relation to the center line of the spindle.
I ended up getting so confused by all of the different viewpoints that I decided that the only way I could fully understand it would be to build a completely adjustable prototype, so that I could actually mount it up, and test it in real life. Then I got my old car (46 Plymouth) moved across the country from where I've had it stored since I bought it in 1980, and so now I've temporarily set the whole cycle cart thing on the back burner, as they say, until I can complete the Plymouth. (But still keeping my eye out for additional ideas & potentially useful parts, especially the ones that come to me for free.) steering arm pivot point

SteveV Avatar
SteveV Steve Vinson
Phoenix, AZ, USA   USA
1924 Ford Model T "Viscount Vinson Special"
1927 CycleKart American "Mono Wasp"
Fantastic discussion here. My only goal was to improve on our current geometry that does not include KPI or Ackerman.
My thought was any efforts to efforts to improve in these areas will reap dividends in steering performance....or it won't matter because these are ultimately just go karts with tall wheels and cool old timey bodies.

I am really curious to see how this design will steer compared to the old design.



Steve Vinson
Arizona CycleKart Club

Design-Build-Race-Repeat

littletex Avatar
littletex Blake Martindale
Azle, TX, USA   USA
Little Tex Here,
Could an off set wrench like the one pictured if big enough be strong enough to use as a Pittman arm or steering arm? Saw a few in various sizes in the make me an offer bin at the local pawn shop just curious.


Attachments:
Pitman Arm.jpg    10.4 KB
Pitman Arm.jpg

Smoky Avatar
Smoky Silver Member Don Schmok
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada   CAN
That’s forged steel, plenty strong I would think.



1929 Riley Bitsa

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Far to heavy for what we are doing here.
Your steering arm does not need to be mad from that thick of material, as long
as it has an adequate gusset!
Keep the mounting surface parallel to the grounding use 3/8" heim joints
with at least 1/2" tie rod material.
That is my 2 cents worth!smiling bouncing smiley
Brian

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