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Little Tex's Miller Build Begins

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Sounds like a plan man. Just in case there is any wood doubters out there, check out this build, http://www.gittrevillegp.com/www.gittrevillegp.com/The_Cars_A/Pages/Bloody_Mary.html#grid one of the best runners going.



S'all for now!

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littletex Avatar
littletex Blake Martindale
Azle, TX, USA   USA
Little Tex Here,
So After the decision was made started working on a design the drawings crude but gives you an idea. I'm no good with tech stuff nor am i an engineer try not to laugh to hard. This may not be the final of final ideas but i think its going to work ( didn't the wright brothers say something like that at some point ) So as i go along i might have to change a little here and there. Thanks guys for all the help from one of the wacky racers.


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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
I can't see why that isn't worth a go.The "box" is where all the stiffness comes from anyway. I am unsurprised how flexi many of the steel chassis with body on top cars are. Nor am I surprised how stiff Johnny Dumfries Bloody Mary or Derek's Bentley are. Both are wood. Both are great to drive.

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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 29472 by Rhysn I can't see why that isn't worth a go.The "box" is where all the stiffness comes from anyway. I am unsurprised how flexi many of the steel chassis with body on top cars are. Nor am I surprised how stiff Johnny Dumfries Bloody Mary or Derek's Bentley are. Both are wood. Both are great to drive.

======================================
Hello, Rhys!
Maybe good old Pete, with his bro Bill and son Mike, together with their company from California and later their ranch in Texas - were right? ...at least in something after years of experimenting?
As I know they tried all variants, including all steel chassis/body structures - and returned to good old-school back-yard soap-box karts...

Ciao,
Zoran

P.S.: As I know you built one beautiful monocoque wooden body, strong and light? Do you know what happened to it after you sold it? Just curious, but could be useful one day...



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Blake,

If you're doing a sandwich construction for the chassis members you can rout out most of the centre core, leave edges ends and pads for any attachment points. It makes a timber box section, I was thinking of doing a timber build with the frame members made from multilayer ply, 1/2" core routed out, with 1/4 skins. Should work out about 5/8th the weight of a solid member the same size and much the same strength.

That was before I decided to make a Morgan using the rear end of a scooter, I'm going for a steel chassis as it's easier to attach the scooter frame. I may well revisit the all timber idea when I come to build a 4 wheeler.

For plywood the more plies there are for a given thickness the stiffer it is, I once made some 3/16" birch ply from 3 layers of 1/16" ply. It was 15 ply and stiff enough to support my weight supported at 12", 1/4" 3 ply can be broken by hand. Alignment matters too, for this application the grain of the outer plies should rub lengthwise on the member.

There's a lot of info on wood construction in a book I found on cyclecars, it's in French but you can glean a lot without understanding the language. I assembled it into a PDF, and uploaded it here: http://www.christopher-wyn-brown.co.uk/velocar.

Chris

Maigret Luc L
Senlisse, Yvelines, France   FRA
Hello Chris,

A marvellous book that I have been looking for since quite some time but never was able to buy .
Now, I get an "as new" copy for free !

Thank you very much, indeed !
Luc

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
You're welcome Luc, I came across it some time ago as a zip file of JPEG images, just assembled them into a PDF. All that's needed now is for someone to translate it into English for the rest of us (only joking honest)!

Chris

littletex Avatar
littletex Blake Martindale
Azle, TX, USA   USA
Little Tex Here,
Thanks Chris and yes the grain will be length wise and I will probably put litening holes in the center core. Each layer is going to be cabinet grade birch 3/8" thick X 3 = 1 1/8" thick about the same as the metal box tubing but less weight how much I ??? Now on to some more questions How much tilt back is good for the seat back, 10,20,30 degrees. What about caster and camber as the miller uses a straight axle I can just roll it back on the springs to get positive caster but how much by degrees and the camber positive or negative? how much? as I have seen both on various CK's. Note on the millers the spindle has the C part on the outside with the king pin tube on the inside attached to the axle, so do we put camber in the king pin tube or the wheel spindle bolt or both and how is it affected by the caster in a hard turn? I don't want it to feel like its dipping in a rut in a deep turn. Have I reached a 1,000 questions yet and I will only try to abuse my own thread thanks again.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Hi Blake
In building my Miller I to struggled with all of the same questions.
As I build cars for a living, the geometry questions were quite straight forward.
But the duplication of Millers Axle was my query.
So first of all, I used VKC spindles which are opposite in design to the original Miller....but this is a CycleKart.
The way in which Miller mounted the axle to the springs makes it easy to build in your "Caster" 10 or more degrees is good
as these things get twitchy at speed if you don't have enough.
You have forgotten to mention one other very important angle in your question......King Pin inclination.
I used 12.5 degrees to get as close to the centre patch as possible without having the yoke hitting the spokes.
I have 2 degree of camber, (would have like 3 degrees but that was as far as I could go.
Well, is it as clear as mud now?
Brian
PS
VKC spindles come with zero camber so I cut them (not all the way thru) and re welded them.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Hi Tex.
The seat back angle is whatever you like. Mine is bolt upright for Instance.
The caster is important on these should be around 8 or 10 deg. The camber and kingpin angle, because of our skinny motorcycle tires is really not critical. I know some guys will make a big deal of it, but you really needn't. I'd make it look like a Miller and call it good.

littletex Avatar
littletex Blake Martindale
Azle, TX, USA   USA
Little Tex Here,
Brian to assure I understand you correctly the caster I got 10+ degrees but with the wheels at straight forward centered you mean the king pin bolt lean in at the top 12.5 degrees while the wheels are straight up and down and the spindle bolts are parallel to the ground?

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Whoa! Brian and I must have been typing at the same time!
Didn't mean to appear contradictory on the KPI thing, but factually, most do without any and don't seem to miss it. Would they be better with it? Probably a little.
I do believe caster over ten will have it little heavy on the steering however, but I tend to like it light.

Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
My tuppence. I have tried 10 degrees caster, I felt it very stable in a straight line, but VERY heavy to turn into corners. Seven was a huge improvement. Still stable, but agile too. I strongly believe after decades (yes really) round race cars that the spindle/king pin should point as closely as practical to the tire centre patch. I see many cyclekarts where the line points away from the tire, no wonder they are twitchy. Manufacturers of full size cars learned that in the 1910s. Even parallel to the wheel is better than pointing aay.
A larger steering wheel makes it less twitchy too . That is why many of the UK hill climb specials (notably Spider) have such big ones, and they used kart type steering. No rack, or steering box. 1/2 turn lock to lock.

Maigret Luc L
Senlisse, Yvelines, France   FRA
Hello Tex,
If you have any questions about ergonomics, go have a look at this :
http://design.data.free.fr/RUCHE/documents/Ergonomie%20Henry%20DREYFUS.pdf
It's not a complete version but, still, it will answer all of your questions ... and all the others you never even thought of.
Otherwise, just copy the little guy in this drawing and adapt it to your car / size :


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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
That's a useful link. Luc, perhaps you could put that in the sticky of plans and drawings.

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