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Pneumatic or Hydraulic?

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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Is there anyone that works with either Pneumatic or Hydraulic systems
here on the forum????
I've had this idea in mind for several years now, that I would like to try
a hydraulic throttle for the Cyclekarts. Mifco hydraulic throttles are used
in a bunch of industrial heavy equipment such as lifts where the engines
must be controlled remotely. So it's nothing new.
Some time ago I had bought a pair of of small 2" stroke cylinders. It's been
hell trying to find fittings for the 5mm male to 4mm and/or 6mm hose, but I
believe I've found some.
Since there isn't really any pressure to conciser in the system, I was wondering
if the pneumatic and hydraulic components, i.e., fittings, hoses and cylinders
themselves, might be interchangeable in low pressure systems. It seems
logical that if the system will hold air pressure then it certainly should hold fluid
pressure and vs versa. Again, moving a carburetor butterfly against low spring
tension isn't going to generate very much pressure at all.
And that old stiction thing actually appears to be the biggest hurdle to over come.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

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refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, MI, USA   USA
The only thing that might be a problem would be the seal material used in the pneumatic stuff - it would have to be compatible with the hydraulic fluid.

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Yep, that''s the first thing that came to mind. But there are hundreds of fluids that could be
used with such a low pressure system Rick. Bound to be one that could be used. Also.....
I'll bet that most of these small cylinders, whether they're air or liquid are using 'O' rings
as a seal. If that was a problem, an easy solution could be had.
Well.....we'll have to wait a couple of weeks for the fittings to get here and then some
bench testing to see if it's gonna work. I've got a couple of .5" cylinders that I made up
my self when this idea first sprouted. The were pretty sticky but I've since learned of
'anti-stiction additive which I need to find a source for.
The whole reason for trying this is I'd love to have a flexible link back to the engine bay
that I could route anywhere I wanted to, including bending round sharp corners.
dg

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1908Rick Avatar
1908Rick Rick Eggers
Cape Coral, FL, USA   USA
Hey Denny. I don't know anything about the subject at hand, but I have a question for you.

What's a Riley?
The reason I ask is, I took my Quadricycle to the antique Ford show at the Edison-Ford Estates in Fort Myers today. Next to me were two guys who vintage race Model A roadsters.
One of them caught my eye because it said "Riley Special" on the cowl. I talked briefly to the owner and he said it had to do with the "Riley" overhead valve head that had been fitted to the engine.
Does this have anything to do with the Riley you are building or is your Riley something completely unrelated? I don't know the history.


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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
No Rick, The Riley that my inspiration car is derived from was the English Riley 7.
The Riley that you saw at the show was a conversion that George Riley, an American
designer of model 'A' conversions and later the model 'B' V8's produced. This was
hop up option similar to the Frontenac Cylinder Head that Arthur and Louis Chevrolet
sold for the model T.
There is a book that addresses the history of George Riley:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006EZ98S?tag=viglink20872-20
I'm sticking with what I feel is the true spirit of the Cyclekart, that is, the racing cars
of the 20's.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

1908Rick Avatar
1908Rick Rick Eggers
Cape Coral, FL, USA   USA
OK. I thought there might be some vague connection, but I didn't know your Riley inspiration was English.

They were interesting anyway. They had both raced those cars at Road America, on skinny little street tires, with drum brakes. Yikes!

refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, MI, USA   USA
The car in my avatar photo is me running at Road America last September in the Elkhart Lake Vintage Festival. Woohoo!

The Model A Fords are in a different class than me and we didn't run together, but still had great fun. smiling smiley


In reply to # 38032 by 1908Rick OK. I thought there might be some vague connection, but I didn't know your Riley inspiration was English.

They were interesting anyway. They had both raced those cars at Road America, on skinny little street tires, with drum brakes. Yikes!


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1908Rick Avatar
1908Rick Rick Eggers
Cape Coral, FL, USA   USA
Looks like your car had fun by the big smile on it's face spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

This is me in 1988, approaching turn 5 at RA in my Capri, which at the time was run in ITB, later modified to run F-production. Love that place.

Sorry we hijacked your thread, Denny. Probably belongs in the Pub. smileys with beer


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Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
In reply to # 38031 by Denny Graham No Rick, The Riley that my inspiration car is derived from was the English Riley 7.
The Riley that you saw at the show was a conversion that George Riley, an American
designer of model 'A' conversions and later the model 'B' V8's produced. This was
hop up option similar to the Frontenac Cylinder Head that Arthur and Louis Chevrolet
sold for the model T.
There is a book that addresses the history of George Riley:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006EZ98S?tag=viglink20872-20
I'm sticking with what I feel is the true spirit of the Cyclekart, that is, the racing cars
of the 20's.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
Denny
You missed Rajo, Roof, & Gallivan, just to name three more!eye rolling smiley
Takes me back to my Mosel T Speedster days.........man I love model T's,
Still have a bunch.
Brian

smallboregarage Avatar
smallboregarage Chuck Kraeuter
Portland, OR, USA   USA
Hi Denny, maybe it would help to put a heavier spring on the butterfly, or a second return spring on the slave cylinder; load it up above the striction force ( give the lead foot something to push against, so to speak).

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Exactly what I was thinking Chuck. Of course the down side to that idea was that if it took to mucn
to negate the stiction, it could cause fatigue. I've got a liter of Maxima 5WT Zero Drag Formula
Racing Fork Fluid ordered, we'll see if that helps minimize it.

Oh yeah Brian, there were a bunch of others trying to pull more pony's out of the 'T', 'A' and the new
flat head V8 Henry was building. You could write volumes about the early hot rodders and the
speed equipment upgrades. Most of the stock production engines here in the states were still
side valve engines up till the post war years, Chevy being one exception. Of course the
Miller/Offy/Meyer & Drake engine can't be considered a production engine. In fact, it owes
much of it's design from the get go to Peugeot. Europe manufacturers was producing many
sophisticated dual overhead cam engines early on.
Denny G
Sandwich, IL

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
I saw a picture yesterday, taken last week at the Grand National Roadster Show of Ed Iskendarian
(Isky Cams) at Age 97, and still smiling and going strong!
Speaking of early Speed Equipment innovators!thumbs up
Brian

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Powering Winners for Over 70 years!!!! One of the last founding
fathers of speed.
Yep, out of high school, I worked as a Chevy parts man. Sold a
lot of the Duntov cams to the street guys....but if you really wanted
to go fast....it had to have an Isky cam.

Speaking of Duntov, and aftermarket speed equipment, how bout
those Ardun heads.
Denny G

refisk Avatar
refisk Rick Fisk
Frankenmuth, MI, USA   USA
Denny,

Has anyone ever devised a hydraulic system that operates in a loop? It would require an output line and a return line and the cylinders would have an in and out port. When you press down on the pedal the fluid would push the slave cylinder piston while at the same time forcing fluid back to the master through the return line. When you lift your foot off of the pedal the return spring(s) would push fluid in the return direction. Would there be any real advantage to this complexity? smiling smiley

Seems like maybe it would be easier to overcome any stiction and the action would be more positive. But what do I know? I'm just a retired (as of last Friday - woohoo!) security system engineer. lol

In reply to # 38041 by Denny Graham Exactly what I was thinking Chuck. Of course the down side to that idea was that if it took to mucn
to negate the stiction, it could cause fatigue. I've got a liter of Maxima 5WT Zero Drag Formula
Racing Fork Fluid ordered, we'll see if that helps minimize it.

Oh yeah Brian, there were a bunch of others trying to pull more pony's out of the 'T', 'A' and the new
flat head V8 Henry was building. You could write volumes about the early hot rodders and the
speed equipment upgrades. Most of the stock production engines here in the states were still
side valve engines up till the post war years, Chevy being one exception. Of course the
Miller/Offy/Meyer & Drake engine can't be considered a production engine. In fact, it owes
much of it's design from the get go to Peugeot. Europe manufacturers was producing many
sophisticated dual overhead cam engines early on.
Denny G
Sandwich, IL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-03 08:41 AM by refisk.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
In reply to # 38052 by refisk
But what do I know? I'm just a retired (as of last Friday - woohoo!) security system engineer. lol

Congrats Rick!thumbs up
Let the CycleKarting begin in earnest!smiling bouncing smiley
Can't wait for a progress report!
Brian

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