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How slooooow can I go???

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Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
I'm often making circular welds on parts around the shop and for parts for the Cyclekart.
I just can't afford to spring for a real welding positioner, but, over the years, at sales, I've
picked up a bunch of gear drives, powered and not.
So this afternoon I pulled this little Dayton Gear Motor down from the shelf and ran it up.
It's 115 VAC and works just fine, only problem is it runs at only one speed. For a weld positioner
I need to be able to vary the speed.
I've always been confused by, I mean I'm a real dummy, when it comes to understanding
electric motors. That is, which ones can and can't the speed be controlled. I'm aware that
you can vary the speed of a DC motor, but when it comes to AC motors......I'm lost.
Somewhere back in me mind I'm thinkin' that since you can vary the chandelier over the dinning
room table from full bright to off with a dimmer, maybe you could use one to vary the speed of a
small motor???? If it's just a matter of dropping voltage across the dimmer, then a dimmer should
handle this little motor, it only draws 1. 3 Amps (150 watts) which would be less draw than the
400 watts the light fixture is using.
Any electricians out there that can help me understand this????
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

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Attachments:
Dayton Gear Motor 02.JPG    41.7 KB
Dayton Gear Motor 02.JPG

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
I'm no sparky either Denny, but I'm pretty sure a inexpensive Variac would do it.

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Wow! That was quick Dave. So, that's not exactly what I was thinking but,
that is an idea I hadn't thought of. I do have a couple of Variac's down on
the radio bench. 10a to 22a, so they should handle anything I got on the shelf.
Question is.....can I vary the AC motor on this particular unit?
dg

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Attachments:
Powerstats galore.JPG    52 KB
Powerstats galore.JPG

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Ok.......So an induction motors speed is governed by the frequency. Reducing the
voltage to it does not slow it down, it only caused it to draw more current trying to
keep up with the RPM, which is fixed by the frequency and number of poles.

A brushed motor will respond to a reduction of voltage, so it can be used with
a dimmer or variac.

Just went out to the barn and tried the little Dayton Gearhead motor plugged into
the 10a variac. Works great!!!!! Thanks for the idea Dave.

Now.......next challenge is how to ground the chuck or work table from the motor
as it rotates. And then figure out a frame to fit it all into.

Denny G
Sandwich, IL

gearguy Charles Schultz
Oil City, PA, USA   USA
Harbor Freight sells a variable speed box for routers that might work.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
You're quite welcome.
I use one to heat the nichrome wire to cut foam with, so I figured maybe.

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Dennyconfused smiley
You are getting side tracked by tools again!eye rolling smiley
Back to the Riley.
Brian
PS
I spent my day side tracked by my new MGA project.....so I shouldn't be scolding you.winking smiley

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Yeah, I think any of the triac devices would work, especially on this
small motor since it only draws as much as a 150 watt bulb.
For the time being, one of my variac's is good for the job.
Guess I'll blow the rest of the week on a frame to mount it in.
Have to pick up a three jaw chuck for it also. Well.....there
goes the Riley......back on the back burner for another week!

Yep, it's so damn easy to get distracted isn't it Brian. Gotta squeeze
in a day to tune up Old Blue, my '50. She's all stock and I drive her
almost every day.Those old cars and trucks require a lot of up keep.
Makes you appreciate how maintenance free our new vehicles are.
dg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-02 08:44 PM by Denny Graham.

classical-gas Scot Laughlin
Bellingham, WA, USA   USA
For the positioner we made for our shop, we took a braided automotive ground strap, and looped it over the drive shaft near the chuck. one end is bolted to the frame where the welder ground clamp attaches, the other has a tension spring to keep the strap snug. You still run current through the chuck mechanism, so don't use a good one.

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
One jump ahead of ya Scot. I found this picture on the net 'bout 03:00.
I took the mutt out for her morning constitutional and because that was
buggin' me and I couldn't get back to sleep, I did a little Google searchin'.
Just got back from Menards and picked up a dimmer that will handle 600w.
And, found a 6" 3-jaw chuck in the machine shop cabinet. And pulled out
a couple of 36x36 16ga. sheets I'd been saving for the last 20 years........knew
I'd need it for somethin' one day.
I want it to be bench mounted and tilt vertical to horizontal. Gonna look into
a variable foot switch one day. But for now, I'll just control the heat with the
of the tig with it's foot pedal and leave the speed setting up to the knob on
the dimmer.
Been wanting one of these for many, many years but they're just simply to
expensive.
dg


Attachments:
Positioner grounding strap.jpg    39.1 KB
Positioner grounding strap.jpg

Woodysrods Avatar
Woodysrods Silver Member Brian Woods
Westbank B.C., Canada   CAN
Okay!
Now that you got that out of your system......Riley, Riley, Riley!!!!!smiling bouncing smiley
Brian
I will try to follow suit and practice what I preach??eye rolling smiley

Notso-Chinsee Avatar
Notso-Chinsee Gold Member Albert Lies
Spokane Valley, Washington (WA), USA   USA
1927 CycleKart American
1938 CycleKart American "Burd Piston Ring Special"
Denny,
Question why not put a ground post on your chuck than put 1-1/2 or 2 raps of the ground cable around the chuck from the welder and to the post (so it un-raps as you weld) and attach a second cable from that post to whatever your are welding (length TBD) will that eliminate current going through the chuck jaws?
Al



Al Lies
The "Not-So Chinsee" guy

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
That certainly is one way of grounding it Al. And if I were only doing
one piece and nothing more in the future, I probably would just wrap
the ground cable around the chuck a couple of times.
But it's not the way a professional positioner is grounded. If I'm
going to go to the trouble of building one it well be patterned
after a tried and true unit. I used them a lot when I was welding
at Fermi Lab. We had big units on floor stands and small ones
used at the welding table. So my intent is to build one of the bench
models like I used to use with about a 100 or 200 lb capacity.
Some makers use a wiper like the braided copper ground straps
that I posted. Some use a copper brush against the back of the
mounting plate. I'm also designing with a I 1/2" thru hole so I can
run a shaft thru the unit.
Been thinking about one of these for several decades, just had to
make my mind up to go ahead and do it. Since I've already had a
use for it and can see more projects down the road.
DG

YourSolutions Steve Nicholson
Tauranga, Bay of Plenty, New Zealand   NZL
I want to see pictures as you build this Denny.Welding positioner is on my long term tool list, have to do bandsaw stand and lathe stand first!

Denny Graham Gold Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Still in the design stage Steve, but I've spent the past week corralling the components.
I've gathered up almost all of the parts. Am using Oilite flange bearings supporting a 2" spindle.
That will have a 6" flange at the working end where I can mount the spare 6" 3-jaw chuck I've
got in the cabinet. I'll make up a 12" aluminum face plate for it also. The ground contact will
be a 1/2" round spring loaded copper rod which contacts the back side of the spindle flange.
The frame will be made up of 1/2" 6061 aluminum plate. The 12:1 gear head motor will mount
to the spindle support head and will drive the spindle thru a #35 chain with a 1:1 ratio. I'll be able to
tilt the head 90° in 15° increments.
I've looked at a ton of them and settled on what I feel is the best design for my use. I'm using
a Rotostar 1 welding positioner for my "inspiration". It's the one I would buy if I had $2500 to
spend. So far it looks like I'll be able to put this together mostly from material I have around
the shop plus a couple hundred bucks. And.......about a weeks worth of work, although.....
I've already got near a week in the planning stage.
Connections!!!!!! Cyclekart!!!!!!! As you can see........because I stumbled on these here
Cyclekarts, I've added to the shop, a shear, a slitter and slip roll to cut and form the
aluminum sheet. Which needed a bead roller and E-wheel to form the sheet each of
which required a few forming dies to shape the metal. Then the fixture to form the springs,
eyes and a ring roller which needed a forge and quench tank to treat the springs.
And now it's the positioner, to end all that stop and go when welding my round parts.
So......one thing is connected to the next, the end result being, the Cyclekart that I've
had pictured in my mind for the past couple of years. All I've got to do is......live long
enough to finish all this crap!!!!!
I'll post a picture when I actually start cutting parts for the positioner.

So Steve, maybe if you get enough guys together in the neighborhood you can rent
the ASB Stadium for a Cyclekart event?????
G'day
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL USA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-10-06 06:30 AM by Denny Graham.

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