Visit our Twitter feed for more great content
CKC

The Pub - Off Topic

Pedal-powered kid-car: Nils-auto

AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello there,
As at 14th of November I started “officially” to build pedal-car for my step-grandson Nils, now 11 months old - I started my own thread/topic so not to (ab)use anymore patience of my friends... That day I bought kid-bicycle with 20" wheels and 2 separate wheels of the same size and shape!

Therefore, I solved the first dilemma: what wheels and transmission to use – I abounded idea of using some kind of kart-wheels, or from wheel-barrows, with adding sprockets for chains and/or pulleys for belts, and special-made brakes... and so on! So, mechanical components should be of bicycle's type, but body should look as much as possible as scale-down replica of old-timer auto, probably in coupé or cabriolet style, or with removable hard-top... Maybe shape of cycle-car from early twenties, or baby-car from early thirties, or even veteran from beginning of XX century (doctor's coupé)

For the beginning, I will put here more dilemmas and questions, than solutions and plans. More photos with details when I have final plans and most of the main components build... Full story after I build kid-car and tested it (with kid as pilot, not myself!)!

Thank you builders on your information about building kid-cars!
However, Nils-auto shall be nothing in a shape or quality of here famous aluminium constructed Bugatti 35 replicas (Bebé Bugatti of Mick and Vitaliy), or ultralight wooden Bugatti 35 (Steve), or Ferrari that is now motorised (David) and a few other magnificent down-coasters from NZ... (some are not mentioned, I am afraid)
More from me in next letter!

Ciao,
Zoran
P.S.: As could be seen from this and following letters, all this is more publicized my own memo, then text useful for other members?




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
bellier-veloauto (5).jpg    28.8 KB
bellier-veloauto (5).jpg

Ganz-Standard, Superior (1).jpg    24.8 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
kid-car, coupé (2).jpg    14.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
kid-car, coupé (6).JPG    65.5 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello,
Something about construction...
It would be of quadricycle layout with all four wheel of the same size and type, with possibly narrower rear track width (shorter rear axle). Beside front bicycle-type pedals, it will have rear derailleur system, so pedaling should be easier in all conditions – probably powering just on one (left) wheel! I have some idea for reverse that would be used at right wheel.

Nils-auto should have all-around independent suppression. I will use laminated plywood as leaf-springs: two transverse at front (parallel one above another, without solid-axle) and four longitudinal at rear (a pair for each wheel, without solid-axle). Notice, all wheels should be suspended on both sides of wheel.

Probably that any variant of “plastic” leaf springs should be better and lighter (polyester or epoxy fiberglass, carbon-fiber...), but I do not like anything about that (being too old to learn and without any desire for that) and prefer much simpler and cheaper solutions. Both “plastic” and wood-laminated leaf-springs were successfully used as elastic axles for light air-planes.

Of course, Nils-auto shall have good brakes and steering! ( more about that later)

Plywood monocoque body/chassis unit shouldn't be too heavy but will give some protection in street traffic and modest comfort in wind and rain (closed body). I will check on paper (do not use computer programs for design) and later with domestic workshop CAD (cardboard design) checking dimensions and position of the main mechanics and driver's ergonomic.

I will try to make it universal and usable trough many years of Nils or for a few kids of various generations. Will see if I will have success in that in all that and especially if it will be accepted by Nils's parents and him personally.

Ciao,
Zoran
P.S.: As could be seen, I (ab)use a lot of photos with other constructor's kid-cars, pedal-powered or down-coasters




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
wooden kid-car, coupé (1b).jpg    53.9 KB
wooden kid-car, coupé (1b).jpg

wooden kid-car, coupé (1g).jpg    66.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
wooden kid-car, coupé (2c).jpg    85.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
wooden kid-car, coupé (2e).jpg    31.3 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello,
As I mentioned somewhere else, my idea is to to build universal kid-car, for age from one to 8-9 years old kid (that complicated things a lot)... So, for the beginning – up to his 2-3 years, it could be used just as kart with non-operational steering and pedals, pulled/pushed and controlled by parents. Steering-wheel will turn freely as on some carnival vehicles (just for his fun). Pedals (bicycle types) shall be covered by provisional dash-board. Nils-auto could be pulled by bicycle, as most of young parents do here using light trailers for to two kids, covered only with plastic fabric over weak frame...

Later it could be used by kid alone, but on restricted places and under parents control. Here in Bern kids use to drive bicycles on open streets escorted by parents, from 3 up to 5 years old and after that even alone, mostly with friends... I think that “auto” should be more interesting and safer ride... I have a hope that Nils should use that “auto” even later, being up to 8-10 years old, but couldn't be sure in that. Probably that “auto” should circled around trough family and friends, neighbors, too! (as was written: “Depends on the child and yes the novelty does wear off... Maybe it should be considered something like a doll's-house or a rocking-horse? Something to be passed around the family and to become a heirloom? Then it makes the effort worthwhile.”)

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
John's-Baby-CK (1).JPG    66.3 KB
John's-Baby-CK (1).JPG

bugatti3.jpg    63.3 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Stevenson's MG (7).jpg    42.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
bugatti2 (2).jpg    57.6 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello,
For such long period of use, the main problem is dimension between back-rest and pedals, then from beck-rest to steering wheel. All that should be changeable trough years! For smaller kids in “passive-mode” of using Nils-auto, there isn't serious problems to design dimensions... But, I am not sure for kids old 2.5-3.5 and up to 5 years old (the first season of “active-mode”). For kids 5-9 years old (the second season of “active mode”), I know from examples and dimension kindly shown here in CK-Club, and from some statistic that I found on Internet (attached bellow this letter).
For all of that periods, I must make seat movable forward-backward, but probably pedals and steering wheel (or to use flat or dished steering wheel when it is necessary).
For changing distance between pedals and seat (and rear axle in general), I got idea from Wes and his magnificent Talbot with long belt transmission. (thank you Wes on inspiration)

http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/read.php?2,19713

Instead of belt, I would use long chain, with tension-sprockets that could let me moving front sprocket/pedal component front-rear for up to 15-20 cm or more. Probably that not all of tensioners should be moved up-down, but just one... There is some other variants, too.

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
visina dece, tabele - Copy.jpg    78.3 KB
visina dece, tabele - Copy.jpg

_dims-1 copy.jpg    26.5 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
CK-stephan's bugatti (1).JPG    28.3 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
00DSCF9962.jpg    45.2 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
stegla Stephen G
Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK   GBR
Nils is a lucky boy to have a grandpa like you.

The photo Bugatti2 is interesting with what might be a brake on the left hand rear wheel?

Steve

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 20107 by stegla Nils is a lucky boy to have a grandpa like you.
The photo Bugatti2 is interesting with what might be a brake on the left hand rear wheel?
Steve
------------------------------------------------
Thank you Steve!
I really enjoy in planing and building such kid-cars! This one should the the third! The first one was really simple made for friend's sons here, so it had trailer for younger. The second one was for my granddaughter Sofia in Belgrade. Not an easy way to bring it there in our small Citroen C1 – so the second and bigger one for her could be built but not transported there... Both of made until now were simple – just for pulling by parents! I hope that this one I will finished as it is planed and that Nils and his parents should be satisfied.
--- ---
I always wanted one for myself and even start building simple soap-box car with a friend when we had 11-12 years, but didn't finished – missed some of the material and good tools! Later, I bought one metal Russian Moskwitch for my son! Auto was ugly, but very solid, had electric lights and rear suspesnison, then printed number on chassis, with a price, too... Unfortunately do not have any photo of it, but found some of that model on Internet. Here are some video-clips, not of my son's Moskwitch, but interesting:





(it was quite slow and not an easy to pedal it for longer time... my shouldn't have such pedals and especially not cranked rear axle)
--- ---
Mentioned wooden Bugatti had some wooden drums on both of wheels - maybe for belt power, or for outboard brakes with belts?

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
moskvich-pedal-auto (1).jpg    58.3 KB
moskvich-pedal-auto (1).jpg

moskvich-pedal-auto (2).jpg    17.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moskvich-pedal-auto (3).jpg    61.5 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moskvich-pedal-auto (4).jpg    57.3 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Zoran,

Since you've started this I'll continue from the PM.

"I thought I'd take this comment off forum, as it's off topic. A thought struck me when there was a discussion on one way bearings as a mock differential, they could be used in place of the crank axle in a pedalcar, allowing a plain axle. Using these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351886801445?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=621226939695&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
to mount the bearings to arms, they would them connect to the standard pedals and save bending the crank."

I was thinking of the classic pedal cart drive, with rocking pedals and a cranked rear axle, as in the first photo, rather than chain and sprocket. I've picked this as it clearly shows the system, if you replace the cranks with one way bearings clamped in the mounts, and with flat plate arms attached, then you can use a plain axle.

It also makes moving the pedals easy, either as shown in the photo, or with a pedal unit with multiple mounting points, and matching holes in the connecting rods, means you can position the pedals wherever you want.

There would have to be some light spring return on the arms, as you wouldn't have the positive return given by the crank, but it does away with the TDC dead spot on the crank.


Attachments:
Pedal car exploded.jpg    25.2 KB
Pedal car exploded.jpg

Pedal car.jpg    21 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 20109 by chrisenamels Zoran,
Since you've started this I'll continue from the PM.
"I thought I'd take this comment off forum, as it's off topic. A thought struck me when there was a discussion on one way bearings as a mock differential, they could be used in place of the crank axle in a pedalcar, allowing a plain axle. Using these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351886801445?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=621226939695&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
to mount the bearings to arms, they would them connect to the standard pedals and save bending the crank."

I was thinking of the classic pedal cart drive, with rocking pedals and a cranked rear axle, as in the first photo, rather than chain and sprocket. I've picked this as it clearly shows the system, if you replace the cranks with one way bearings clamped in the mounts, and with flat plate arms attached, then you can use a plain axle.

It also makes moving the pedals easy, either as shown in the photo, or with a pedal unit with multiple mounting points, and matching holes in the connecting rods, means you can position the pedals wherever you want.


There would have to be some light spring return on the arms, as you wouldn't have the positive return given by the crank, but it does away with the TDC dead spot on the crank.
=====================================.
Hello Chris,
Now, with your more explanation and added pictures, and some similar that I found - I better understand your suggestions!

I will still think about possibilities for the simplest and cheapest but the most practical solutions for transmission. Now, I am inclined to bicycle's type, but there are interesting solutions with push-pull pedals (classic pedal-cars systems), that could be of hanging type (mostly) or standing type, or sliding type (in rails), or attached to horizontal levers... Transmission could be by levers, or cables and/or chains and similar to your with sprag-clutches. In any case I would try to avoid cranked rear axle, but we shall see.

Some decades ago, I had one Russian magazine with popular techique issues, with special section about pedal-autos as they called them. People built them as necessity (to be driven as “cheap autos” during entire year) not for fun and recreation. There were a lot of examples with simpler or more complicated pedalling systems.

As your suggestion is simplest way for having a few distances between pedals and seat, without building of crank-axle, I would consider it as the first. Maybe to use levers to jack-axle (middle-axle, bellow a seat) and then chains to rear wheels as I have that already (with speeds trough dérailleur system)?

There is still time for that, the first task is front suspension and steering, then testing of possible variants of chassis/body unit...

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
91801221_L_158a6b42.jpg    14.1 KB
91801221_L_158a6b42.jpg

91801023_L_17cfb0e2.jpg    14.6 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
91801223_L_17cff426.jpg    26.7 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
pedals & chassis (1).jpg    33.2 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
amphibian William Howell
Canton, TX, USA   USA
Mr Zorin,

I would sure love to see some plans on the wood bugatti3.jpg pictured, especially the front axle/steering assembly....

Did you build this from your own design or was it from a set of plans....


Been looking to build a pedle cart for my Grand Daughter and would love to do this one...



Thank you,

WH

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 20149 by amphibian Mr Zorin,
I would sure love to see some plans on the wood bugatti3.jpg pictured, especially the front axle/steering assembly....
Did you build this from your own design or was it from a set of plans....
Been looking to build a pedle cart for my Grand Daughter and would love to do this one...
Thank you,
WH
============================================
Hello William,
Sorry for possible misunderstanding - not one photo of those shown until now is of my own kid-cars - they are from Internet, or from members of this CK Club. They are shown just as possible inspiration for general design or details. The same is with mentioned Bugatti! As I could see it looks as some variant of Stevenson's designed kid-cars, but with something different front suspension/steering. More about their designs you could find on their web-site:

http://www.stevproj.com/

Our member Steve done a pair of Stevenson's variants and wrote about them (with videos and photos) at thread/topic:

http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/read.php?5,18355

I am sure that Steve could give you more details, the same as Mike Stevenson who is member of our CK Club.

Until now, I built just two simple kid-cars, without any plans, the same as the third that I will build now.
Photos of the first one (yellow for my friend's son) and the second one (red for my granddaughter in Belgrade) are attached.

Happy and jolly building!

Regards,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
Oliver's kart & trailer (0).jpg    69.8 KB
Oliver's kart & trailer (0).jpg

Oliver's kart & trailer (3).JPG    74.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Sofia's speedster (0) - Copy.jpg    61.5 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Sofia's speedster (2).JPG    51.5 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello there,
I planed to post 3 serials of information, pictures, sketches, some dilemmas and questions:

~ the first about pedal mechanism and ergonomics of small and big kids (3 year old – 95 cm and 9 years 135 cm, average), with possibility of moving seats, pedals and steering wheel;
~ than, about finished mechanism and main frame before covering;
~ finally, with finished auto...

However, as I got twice times in last week warning to stop posting here, I will abound such plans...Rules of any forum are rules for all (didn't know for them) and must be obeyed!

Therefore, I shall somewhere else posted all information and photo-strip about building Nils-auto, from start to finish - probably in “INSTRUCTABLES” and “MAKE”, or my own Yahoo forum for small cars.

Some questions I could send in private messages to members that have more experience with kid-pedal-cars, or answer in the same way on possibly asked questions...

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
off-topic.jpg    29.4 KB
off-topic.jpg

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
errased - double posting
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

stegla Stephen G
Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK   GBR
Zoran,

I too have had this message........we must not spend too long in the pub!

Steve

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 20263 by stegla Zoran,
I too have had this message........we must not spend too long in the pub!
Steve
==========================================
Steve,
What to do - we didn't have pubs (and still do not have) neither in Belgrade, nor here in Swiss... Therefore, pubs were my old love from old British films and TV serials! However, there are something here-and-there that have such names, but nothing original.
Here in Bern we have bars, and in Belgrade we had old "bife" (Büfett) and now "kafic", something as small cafe...

Seriously, we were asked not to disturbed serious Cyclekartistes, so I avoid posting in:

http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/list.php?2

or more relaxed anthusiasts in:

http://www.cyclekartclub.com/phorum/list.php?6

Happy building, now I am going to basement to check something about my bicycle's wheels...
Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

stegla Stephen G
Guernsey, Channel Islands, UK   GBR
Zoran,

I would like you to continue this thread here on Cyclecartclub.com.

It's no big deal if you are forced to take a break from the off-topic forum for a few days.

Steve

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions




Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster





Join The Club

Sign in to ask questions, share photos, and access all website features

Your Karts

1912 CycleKart American

Text Size

Larger Smaller
Reset Save

Sponsor Links