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One Wheel To Rule Them All?

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Chamberlin Tony Chamberlin
Seattle, WA, USA   USA
In reply to # 17006 by Mr fixit Hello Group,
The other thing to consider is the front wheels don't have the webbing in them, and lots of rear wheels have the webs broken or rewelded in an attempt to fix the drive of the bike the wheel came off of.
What about 2 plates that sandwich the hub and the inner plate has studs that ingage into holes but no bolt's all the way though for a Finnish look like the fronts. Then you could use the front and back the same if they both have the holes for the pins for the inside plate.
I'm looking at this idea for my cart not there yet but if I do I will share my plan.

TX
Mr fixit for the family
Chris

I like the front hub better aesthetically and structurally. Your idea of the plate and stud interface is interesting.

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Pierro Taruffi Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffs, UK   GBR
1923 CycleKart Vintage "Voisin Laboratoire"
Yes, that is a good graphic if you are using rear wheels on the front. What reasons are you likely to want to drop on a spare? If it's a flat, they are only a matter of swapping a tube which can be done with bare hands, and sometimes a lever. If it's a broken wheel, obviously more issues. From what I saw at the 2 times at Tieton, when people use the same stubs etc, there is the wonderful spirit which has folks lending their gear. If you go with your own designs, this may be counter intuitive as you are then on your own. Not saying that there is not room for improvements, just being "devils advocate".

Chamberlin Tony Chamberlin
Seattle, WA, USA   USA
Rhys, you make a good point about commonality with other cars. I welcome the feedback. What sparked this was seeing all the videos and write ups on drilling and adding the bolt on hubs to the rear wheels. its seemed like a decent amount of work getting everything centered etc and thought maybe it could be more simply. granted what i have going just moves some of that labor to the drive assembly. I also like the Idea of the non-drive or free wheel rear wheel having bearings. From what ive seem many folks jsut leave off the key way key on the axle for the free wheel.

But most of all i might want to have a spare on the car and it would nice if it worked anywhere...

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Pierro Taruffi Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffs, UK   GBR
1923 CycleKart Vintage "Voisin Laboratoire"
Personally I feel that bearings in the free wheel are a very bad idea as there is no chance of any power transfer. I use a fixed axle, or at best would use my "own design limited slip"
If you wanted to carry a spare, it might be worth using hubs both front and rear, ah but think of the weight smiling smiley. "There is nothing as light as nothing" as a notable race car builder used to say. And every bolt must do more than one job.

FWIW, if you have a truly freewheeling wheel on one side, if you use the brake hard, be well prepared for the sudden opposite lock smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-05-24 04:36 PM by Pierro Taruffi.

carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
If you want a spare, for cycle carting purposes it only has to be a picture.



S'all for now!

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
Hope it's alright to resurrect an old thread, rather than starting an new one about more or less the same thing. I see that the one who started this thread is no longer posting, but I'm curious about how much weight you all would sacrifice in order to have all four wheels the same (to be mounted at any location). Is this something you've ever wished you had?

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
My current build uses all 4 of the same aluminum wheel, but they are mounted differently at the front than at the rear for obvious reasons.

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Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In reply to # 32213 by CmdBentaxle My current build uses all 4 of the same aluminum wheel, but they are mounted differently at the front than at the rear for obvious reasons.

So, even though they are mounted differently, are they universal? (ie, Can you put a rear one on the front, and vice versa?) From what I've read here, those that can mount their rears on the front as well have used the 'extra' hubs on the front, thereby adding that weight. Is it worth it?

carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
I don't see the front wheels weighing that much more than the rears. They're probably pretty equal.



S'all for now!

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Speeddemon Avatar
Speeddemon Louis Poleet (Suspended)
Roslindale, MA, USA   USA
1970 CycleKart Custom "Rose"
One wheel to rule them all.? Easy Solution design/draw/3d cad./etc. And Machine or cast your bolt on universal hubs and just use the ct90 outa rims and then lace them up and go racing/etc .cheers



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 09:14 PM by Speeddemon.

CmdBentaxle Avatar
CmdBentaxle Dave D
Federal Way, WA, USA   USA
1950 CycleKart Italian "1950 Ferrari 166 F2"
Only the fronts have bearings sized to the front axle. The rears are bushed to a different spec. Same wheel hub, but not interchangeable without bearing changes.

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
OK, I'll spill the beans about why I was asking about this. A fellow church member gave me a wheel from an E-Bike (with a burned out motor). I gutted it (removed the armature & the magnets) and have been thinking about how hubs like this could be used on a cyclekart. I don't know how much a correct motorcycle wheel weighs, but this one (according to the guy at the post office) comes in at 0.2 oz shy of 7 pounds. (This is with the 26" bicycle rim still on it. The rim is aluminum, but appears to be extruded, not stamped.)
This hub is larger than some others I have seen on e-bikes around here. (Being in Amish country, I see a LOT of them.) This hub is 6 5/32" (156mm) inside the 'drum', 7 7/16" (189mm) outside (not including the spoke flanges). The 'drum' wall thickness is 9/32" (8mm). It uses a German bearing, IBC 6004Z, 20mm ID, 42mm OD, 12mm wide. The bearing casing thickness is 1/4" (6.5mm) (I was hoping to be able to fit a 3/4" bearing in there, but the standard 3/4" bearing OD is 1 5/8", a bit smaller than this one.)
I think a smaller diameter hub would be better, although this one is large enough that a 5X100mm wheel pattern would easily fit inside it, if that is a common hub size for ATVs, etc. I had meant to measure the width of the hub as well, both at the 'drum' and at the axle hole, but failed to do that. Used as it is now, there would have to be a spacer inside, I suspect, to prevent the bearings from working out of position. As a motor, it is driven off of the axle to the 'drum', of course, so the side plates just support the wheel, not dealing with torque. I mention this because these side plates are held in place with only 8 M4 screws (each side). Although the side plates fit really snugly on the 'drum', with a lip that fits inside it, I question whether these small screws could take the torque. So a plate would need to be welded inside the 'drum' to engage the drive axle, like perhaps a spline of some sort. (My thinking was that if a larger bearing was fitted on the inside, then a universal wheel could be achieved. The outer bearing would be, say, 3/4", or even 5/8", and the inner would be large enough that the axle spline could pass through it w/o hanging up on the bearing. When installed on the rear, the bearings wouldn't do anything, but the same wheel could be installed on the front as well.) I had more or less decided to just use hubs like this on the front as is (if I can get more of them, and some 17" motorcycle or moped rims to lace up on them - I've done re-spoking before, so I'm not worried about that), but as I mentioned above, I think a spacer would be needed inside the hub, or else new side plates would need to be made, with the bearings pressed in from the outside rather than from the inside.

Edited to add: the hub is steel. (Also corrected some grammatical errors I missed earlier.)

Here are some pictures: (If I'm not making a nuisance of myself, I can take some more photos, if someone wants to see them.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-11 04:05 PM by Neto.


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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
Ernest, I do admire your divergent thinking! If the crush tube between the bearings is present, does it matter whether the bearings are fitted from inside or out? After all the inner will be held between the shoulder on the spindle and the nut.
As another thought, I am aware that the "inch" sizes are easier to find the bolts in the US, but apparently bearings are an issue. Wouldn't it be easier to source the metric size , in your case 20 mm , and then have easy bearing replacement when needed?
All of my drivel assumes you are using them for front wheels of course.

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In reply to # 32318 by Rhysn Ernest, I do admire your divergent thinking! If the crush tube between the bearings is present, does it matter whether the bearings are fitted from inside or out? After all the inner will be held between the shoulder on the spindle and the nut.
As another thought, I am aware that the "inch" sizes are easier to find the bolts in the US, but apparently bearings are an issue. Wouldn't it be easier to source the metric size , in your case 20 mm , and then have easy bearing replacement when needed?
All of my drivel assumes you are using them for front wheels of course.

I think about the best 'divergent thinking' I've seen on here yet is making a grill shell out of a stainless steel sink!

Yes, with a spacer (crush tube) inside, there would be no problem with the bearings working their way out. I kinda' doubt it would happen anyway, because I had to use a press to remove the one bad one. If there were a way to keep that tube in place when the wheel was removed, then it would not be necessary to open the hub to install a wheel. Originally the bearings were held in place by a larger diameter section in the center of the axle, where the motor armature was installed (with a key way).

I think they would work great for front wheels, but it would have been nice to make a "one wheel fits all" solution, like the original poster on this thread was after. For use on the rear axle, at first I thought about making a flange (fixed to the axle) with a few of pins on it that would extend into holes in the inside hub plate, but I question whether the eight M4 screws could handle the torque.

I agree that in the long run it would be better to use metric spindles, and if the wheels were made interchangeable with the rear, 22mm drive axle as well. Bearings do seem to be an area in which the old inch measurements are loosing out to metric. (I think that I would only use the 3/4" bearings if I decided to have new hub side plates made.)

I'm also wondering how this weight compares to the specified motorcycle wheel.

Edit (8:35 PM Eastern Standard Time):
The hub width at the axle position (with the side plates installed) is 3 5/16" (84mm), and the 'drum' part of the hub itself is 2" (52mm) wide. One thing I really like about these hubs is that with the hub plates on both sides, there is no need to reinforce anything (I don't think).

All I have done to this hub so far is to remove the motor armature, and use a chisel to break the magnets loose, and then remove them as well. (They were glued or epoxied in, but it was not difficult to get them out.) But I do think that unless a person wants the large hub diameter, a smaller diameter E-Bike hub motor would provide a better option, especially weight-wise.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-12 07:35 PM by Neto.

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