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Spindles

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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
I picked up on this comment in another thread.

And with all of the broken spindles this past year, I think we will be seeing a lot of new builders opting for 3/4" spindles.

If this is the case, would it not be wise to look at the actual mode of failure rather than just jump up a size of spindle? A few photos of actual failure might reveal something?

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chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Agreed Rhys, it's no good going up in spindle size if it's not the actual spindle that's failed, if it's welds that have failed then it's design that's at fault not the material.

Chris

dBlast Avatar
dBlast Vince De Blasi
Maple, ON, Canada   CAN
From my observations of what has been reported, the spindle failures appear to happen on the short oval or circular tracks where there is a constant g-force load. On longer road courses where there are longer stretches of neutral load there is not that continual stress of always being in a turn on a short oval. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard of spindle failures happening at Tieton in the rough orchard or the long Gordon Bennett.

Vince.

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Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
In reply to # 32158 by dBlast From my observations of what has been reported, the spindle failures appear to happen on the short oval or circular tracks where there is a constant g-force load. On longer road courses where there are longer stretches of neutral load there is not that continual stress of always being in a turn on a short oval. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard of spindle failures happening at Tieton in the rough orchard or the long Gordon Bennett.

Vince.

Which all comes back to why I started the thread, so far everything is hearsay.

Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
I think you're on the right track Rhys. The stub spindle is not bending and breaking
from the few pictures that I've seen. It's the weld joint that fails.....which clearly leads
one to the conclusion that the welding process is not correct. I've posted before,
that if the bolts being used are grade 8, care needs to be taken in a Pre- and Pos-
heat treatment of the weld. And....a plain old low grade 2 hardware store 5/8" bolt
is plenty strong for this application. I don't have the numbers but the bending force
for this size bolt has to be quite high, that is, the tensile strength being around
15,000 lb for this size bolt so the shear is probably close to a ton.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
That's why I'm not welding my spindles Denny, the kingpin assembly will be welded up in mild steel, with bracing. The spindle bolt will run through a tube on the back of the king pin sleeve which will be braced by the steering arm.

Chris

Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
I agree with all that has been said so far.... where are the photos? It could be as simple as a design issue.

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
In Tieton 2016 the orchard chewed off four (4) spindles.

And yes it is all in the design.


In reply to # 32158 by dBlast From my observations of what has been reported, the spindle failures appear to happen on the short oval or circular tracks where there is a constant g-force load. On longer road courses where there are longer stretches of neutral load there is not that continual stress of always being in a turn on a short oval. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard of spindle failures happening at Tieton in the rough orchard or the long Gordon Bennett.

Vince.



S'all for now!

Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
In reply to # 32165 by carChips In Tieton 2016 the orchard chewed off four (4) spindles.

And yes it is all in the design.


In reply to # 32158 by dBlast From my observations of what has been reported, the spindle failures appear to happen on the short oval or circular tracks where there is a constant g-force load. On longer road courses where there are longer stretches of neutral load there is not that continual stress of always being in a turn on a short oval. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard of spindle failures happening at Tieton in the rough orchard or the long Gordon Bennett.

Vince.

Vic, if a comment as you have made is correct, and I am pretty sure you are correct, (still looking for pics) then wouldn't it be nice to know WHICH design is failing?
To be fair, I suppose there might be some issue in naming a product which has failed. Then again, if someone is seriously hurt when using such a product and others knowingly have with held information?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 06:49 AM by Rhysn.

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Denny Graham Silver Member Dennis Graham
Sandwich, IL, USA   USA
1950 Chevrolet 3600 "Old Blue"
1954 Chevrolet 3600
Comin' in for a warm up, and see you've stir'd up some discussion Rhys.
Danged if we dint have some April showers this morning, SNOW showers
that is!
What seems odd to me, is the system is exactly the same as go karts have been
using for 60 years and I can't recall ever hearing of a go kart loosing a spindle.
Of course the fact that we're using a 22 inch diameter wheel on the same stub as normally shoulders
a 10-11 inch tire might have something to do with it. A lot more leverage trying to break off the bolt.
But, consider this, a midget or comparable car in the UK doesn't use a stub axle that is a heck of a
lot bigger than the 3/4" spindles.
Now some of the really hot karts, like the shifters and such, do run 1" stub axles. But you're looking
at speeds up to and exceeding 100 mph at times.
dg

chrisenamels Avatar
chrisenamels Silver Member Chris Brown
Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, UK   GBR
Diameter and width of tyre make a big difference Denny, doubling the diameter doubles the leverage, and a narrow tyre with a rounded profile is more likely to tip than a wide tyre with a flat profile. When you add in the surfaces we're running on which are either grippy (road tarmac), or uneven and liable to rut, compared with a smooth kart track, failures are much more likely. The higher centre of gravity of a cyclekart will also increase the loadings on the spindle, making it more likely to tilt rather than slide as a kart would.

Basically the way we're using them is way outside their design parameters, so a spindle that's plenty strong enough for a kart, is likely to be pushing it's limits the way we use them.

Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 10:07 AM by chrisenamels.

Speeddemon Avatar
Speeddemon Louis Poleet (Suspended)
Roslindale, MA, USA   USA
1970 CycleKart Custom "Rose"
Hi all Just my 2cents ..but you all Need a make a new mini spindle and mini 4bolt hubs designed based on say 1928 to 1940 ford/chevy style spindles along with similar king pin style front axle . ..its allready proven that you cant use regular kart spindles in those hard harsh racing conditions with them ct90 wheels they wont last and take that kind of punishment on a regular basis .cheers



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 11:30 AM by Speeddemon.

Antioch Bob M
Langley, BC, Canada   CAN
1929 CycleKart French "LR2 Special"
Vic is absolutely correct that in 2016 at Tieton the orchard saw 4 spindle failures. I believe there have been one or two in the street/drag racing in other years 2014/15 ?), but I am going by memory & I also think one at the Gordon Bennett. (The first big climbing hairpin comes to mind) I only had a picture of one failure & I can't find it now.

Most all appeared to be Azusa or Northern Tool versions, meaning all I think were off shore Chinese parts. And yes welding on some of their parts isn't great. But I also believe the design could be improved. I haven't seen any Vintage spindles break, though one rear axle broke out of a wheel (wheel casting failure). Not to say it hasn't happened on a different part of the Scottsdale course. But there parts are built with grade 8 bolts with much better welding.

No memory on tires or bolt sizes being used..... but that is it....all memory based with no documentation.



Rosengart LR2 Special

Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
See what I mean? Hearsay and ill informed rumour from some sources.
No photos to make any really informed comments. I do respect most of you and what you have seen, Bob I'm surprised your camera didn't snap into action. I have been to Tieton 3 times, 2,3 and 5 and seen none. I do know they did happen one year I wasn't there, but nobody has ever shown a photo to assist.

Speeddemon Avatar
Speeddemon Louis Poleet (Suspended)
Roslindale, MA, USA   USA
1970 CycleKart Custom "Rose"
Hey You guys are doing ya best to emulate cars from that era.. you all are make mini cyclekart versions of them ...so its only common sents to use the allready proven /lasting king pin front end/spindle / 4 bolt hubs designed from that era.. THink about it...pce.cheers.. p.s also think about all the agro/etc just to mount and use them ct90 wheels and worry about a weld bolt head/spindle joint breaking at some point down the road.. you would save on all that b.s !. If ya all did that in your design/build in first place. You will have true pice of mind and have a reliable safe cyclekart in the end . And will it be easyer/quicker/safely /etc mounting of them ct90 wheels to boot and add the option of front end brakes too. .......But hey what do I know.. right rhys/woody/dave.d/etc ?. Im just talking out mi hat...as you say.



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-09 05:19 PM by Speeddemon.

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