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Building the Schasche - Started engine tear down

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akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
After lots and lots of careful deliberation, I have decided to go ahead and build the Schasche. By all quantifiable metrics, the Amilcar CGSS would be more suitable to 'kartify' - it scales extremely well to Stephenson specs, so I could copy most builds here and have a relatively painless build.

It's just that I've fallen in love with the Schasche's unconventional looks. The side-mounted engine just looks too cool, and when I came across the Bernard W110 engine, that just sealed the deal. Rules be damned - i'm building the Schasche! It won't conform to the rules so any future event I'll attend I'll just run for the proverbial shits and giggles. Since I won't be following 'official' specs anywy, I might as well use it as a test mule of sorts. I have a few ideas I want to play around with, see what works and what doesn't.. I'm also trying to get some good deals on parts, so this will be a bit of a budget build. (or at least that's what I'm telling my wife)

So currently I am collecting the 'big' parts. Engine, CVT, Springs & Wheels. I figured these are the biggest single expenditures on any build, so if I can get these, I should be good to go. Here's what I've got so far:

Engine

The engine I've found is a mid-1950s Bernard Moteurs W110. I bought it in good running condition for about half the cost of a new Honda-clone. It will need some modification to better resemble the engine in the original car, and to improve performance (it is rated 4.5hp at 2400RPM max stock). There are three big jobs that need doing:

1.) Put it on a diet. It weighs in at a little over 40kg with fuel and oil in it. I believe the Hondas are about half as much. I won't get anywhere near that light, but I'm hoping to end up with a 30kg engine. I will replace the sump. Also looking into removing the cooling fan altogether. I am not sure if it's needed - when the car is running, it should get sufficient airflow

2.) Replace the sump. This would be the biggest weight saving. I also need some anchoring points to mount the engine to the chassis. There is no easy or pretty way to do that with the stock sump.

3.) Increase perormance. Hot-rodding a 60-yar old industrial engine should prove interesting.. I'll take out the limiter, probably replace the carb and I will have to replace the valve springs. Anyone know what the specs are on the Honda springs? (ID / OD / uncompressed length?). I hope to get her up to 5000RPM. With some carb work it should be good for 6 or 7Hp. Nothing too crazy.

Othr engine mods will be easier.. just like the Hondas, I will need to rig up a throttle linkage. Everything else is mostly cosmetic. I will strip the paint off and either leave it bare aluminum, or give it a new paintjob.

CVT

I've decided to take a gamble on the torque converter. I mentioned earlier that I was thinking about using a unit off a scooter. Just today I went ahead and bought a set off a Peugeot Ludix. I have absolutely no idea if it'll work, but if it does, that's a 30 euro torque converter setup. If it doesn't work, that's a 30 euro lesson in mechanical engineering, plus a few parts for a future project. Either way, money well spent.

How big are the Comet CVT's? This unit is fairly small - almost certainly smaller than the Comets. The powered pully is a little over 4 inches in diameter. The idler pully about 5 inches across. The belt is also a bit narrower.

Now the big difference (and maybe benefit?) of these is that the idler pully comes with its own centrifugal clutch. When stationary, the belt does not slip. It's under constant tension. I hope this means fewer burnt belts, although it may mean a smoked clutch instead. We'll have to see what happens!

Here's a pic of the unit I bought:



Springs

The Schasche uses straight springs. Good thing the French folks found about about those trailer stabilizer springs. Much, much cheaper than those popular buggy springs. Those are actually quite hard to find here, and the cheapest I've found them were 160 euros. The old stabilizer springs cost 30 to 40 euros a set. Even with extra shipping from France, that's still a lot cheaper. In fact, I am considering putting springs front and back, just like the original. Fabrice is helping me find these. I hardly speak any French at all, so it's great to have someone assist me like that. smiling smiley

Wheels

Chinese parts don't get much love.. they are however, the cheapest option by a wide margin. I have found Honda clone wheels in the Netherlands going for around 90 euros each. Or I could go with Chinese pitbike wheels for about 1/3rd the price. Even with shipping from France, they will be so much cheaper..

I hope to have all major parts together in the next few months. I'll start tearing down my engine and rebuilding it somewhere next week. I want to get started ASAP. I don;t have a real deadline, but I hope to get her done in time for the Grand Prix de Cabariot - probably Europe's first 'official' Cyclekart meet & race, held in June next year.

To be continued...!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-25 02:15 PM by akumabito.

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gypo Avatar
gypo Doc J
powys, wales, UK   GBR
Interesting project...check here for your valve springs, probably best with 18lb ones. http://www.gxtuningstoreuk.com/inc/sdetail/126/156

akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
Yeah, I hope the springs willbe at least a little bit compatible. There is a huge range in springs for the Honda engines. If those don't fit I need to hunt down some other springs I could use. Custom springs are surprisingly hard to find over here. Might have to get some from McMaster-Carr.

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gypo Avatar
gypo Doc J
powys, wales, UK   GBR
Well from what I understand so far about the little gx type motors and reading our Dennis's blog/you tube removing the governor allows the engine to come alive. So do you really need to do more than that in a cycle kart??


But if your going to play engines.....cough cough. Hi lift cam,offset key, ported head, larger carb, trick pipe, inlet filter may help it to move along a bit but with performance comes reliability.

akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
I'm not using the GX engine though.. It's an old industrial engine, a Bernard Moteurs W110. Here's a pic:

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I'm lucky to find any original parts. Absolutely nothing was made for these to increase power or RPM's, so any and al mods will have to be DIY. Any compatibility with the modenr GX engines would be entirely coincidental. I have yet to take apart the engine. I'll have to measure the valve springs then find someting 'close enough' that's just a little stiffer.

gypo Avatar
gypo Doc J
powys, wales, UK   GBR
I do apologise thought the engine you were using was similar to the Honda gx. I should have done my homework first off but got wires crossed thinking parts were similar.

Interesting engine similar in a few ways to my Lister, when were these made in the 50/60's??

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2uhemq

akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
They came in a few different configurations and started production in 1951. The engine doesn't say what year it was build unfortunately, and I had no luck finding any more info using the serial number. I'm guesstimating mine was build around 1956 or 57, but that's judged solely on the carb, air filter and exhaust that came with the engine, compared to a few more whose age is known. Those parts all interchange however, so there really is no telling exactly how old it is. All I know for certain is that she's +/- 60 years old.

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gypo Avatar
gypo Doc J
powys, wales, UK   GBR
What size it the crank shaft 1" or 3/4" and is it tapered? Just curious to know how you will utilise a drive off it or is there a form of clutch that is/was purpose built by the manufacturer. I'm presuming also its a pull cord type starting method not a handle like my Lister?

Little French Avatar
Little French Silver Member Fabrice B
PUY DU LAC, Charente maritime, France   FRA
Hello Joost,

Good luck for the construction ...

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akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
In reply to # 13185 by gypo What size it the crank shaft 1" or 3/4" and is it tapered? Just curious to know how you will utilise a drive off it or is there a form of clutch that is/was purpose built by the manufacturer. I'm presuming also its a pull cord type starting method not a handle like my Lister?

I am not sure yet how I will get the power from the engine to the transmission. I want to slim down the engine first, then worry about the rest. Right now there's a pully attached to the crank. Perhaps I will keep it, then belt drive to the CVT input -> CVT -> chain to rear wheel. Or I might attach the driven pully directly to the crank if I can get it to fit (doubt it though). I need to put a little more thought into the transmission setup - the CVT unit is off a moped that revs about 3x higher than this engine ever will. Luckily the point of engagement is easily adjustable via inexpensive roller weights. Then at the end, the centrifugal clutch can also be adjusted using readily available springs. Eventually, I need to figure out 4 things:

1.) Do I need an 'overdrive' as a primary between the engine and CVT? (increase input RPM on transmission)
2.) Do I need to adjust the roller weights to account for a lower operating RPM?
3.) Do I need to make adjustments to the clutch's engagement RPM?
4.) What final ratio do I need between the CVT and the rear wheel?

This will all need some experimentation.. it might be a while until I've got it all sorted out, but it's all part of the fun.

akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
By the way, for those interested in the engine and what's happening on the inside, there is an excellent photo album of a complete restauration on this page: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/105470028805073536648/albums/5996545038590778353

As you can see, mine doesn't look nearly as bad as that engine.. I'll be happy if it ends up looking half as good as his.. smiling smiley

gypo Avatar
gypo Doc J
powys, wales, UK   GBR
I would imagine 2&3 run close on one together as most moped centrifugal clutch need quite a few k of rpm to engage fully. Whether the belt would grip on a really low rpm to give it the driving force needed to move the weight of the car-you well there is an unknown at the mo Once the initial movement/inertia is there then obviously it becomes easier.Whether the clutch would burn out is another matter. No harm in trying as you have most of the bits to hand, it's going to be an interesting and probably a lengthy project to with plenty of head scratching.

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 13196 by akumabito By the way, for those interested in the engine and what's happening on the inside, there is an excellent photo album of a complete restauration on this page: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/105470028805073536648/albums/5996545038590778353

As you can see, mine doesn't look nearly as bad as that engine.. I'll be happy if it ends up looking half as good as his.. smiling smiley

=============================================================
Hello Joost,
Excellent choice of beau-ideal car!
Your engine is beautiful and will looks nice on the side of CK, especially without cooling turbine. Maybe you should get some more power without turbine?

As you have engine on a side, transmission too, would you consider to have final chain drive to rear wheel, in a style and technique of motorcycle (sprocket on wheel)? It would looks similar as original Schasche cyclecar had (two photos atatched) ... I discussed that with Pete Stevenson in a time when had plans to use components of JAWA motorcycle for my variant of CK... (two photos attached)

Ciao,
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


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akumabito Avatar
akumabito Joost van Ekris
Smilde, Drenthe, Netherlands   NLD
Zoran,

I bought this engine because it was the closest thing I could find that resembled the Schasche engine. I want to build the driveline in the same manner as the original. (or as close as practical). With a bit of luck, that will include rear suspension as well. The rear axle will just be a simple tube. I am going to use 17"motocross wheels and I'll use their bearings rather than trying to fit them to a hub. I'll be using front wheels - they come with a mounting plate for a single disc brake. I will not use a disk here, but I will modify a sprocket to mount here.

I don't want a visible disc brake on this vehicle, so I will mount a disc brake on the jackshaft that holds the rear CVT pully and the sprocket.

I'll only have braking power on a single rear wheel, which could be 'interesting' to say the least. I should say though that I am favoring looks over practicality on this build. She won't be winning any races! (except perhaps a Concours d'Elegance, I hope!)

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 13200 by akumabito Zoran,

I bought this engine because it was the closest thing I could find that resembled the Schasche engine. I want to build the driveline in the same manner as the original. (or as close as practical). With a bit of luck, that will include rear suspension as well. The rear axle will just be a simple tube. I am going to use 17"motocross wheels and I'll use their bearings rather than trying to fit them to a hub. I'll be using front wheels - they come with a mounting plate for a single disc brake. I will not use a disk here, but I will modify a sprocket to mount here.

I don't want a visible disc brake on this vehicle, so I will mount a disc brake on the jackshaft that holds the rear CVT pully and the sprocket.

I'll only have braking power on a single rear wheel, which could be 'interesting' to say the least. I should say though that I am favoring looks over practicality on this build. She won't be winning any races! (except perhaps a Concours d'Elegance, I hope!)
====================================================
Joost,
Stevensons had just one wheel power and one wheel braking (on the same wheel) - without problems. They used power for better turning to opposite side of powered wheel - in such corners and curves. They used brake for better turning in opposite direction.

However, you should think again about position of brake: many theories and practical experiences suggested to have brake(s) on wheel(s) - not on any part of transmission... Even Veteran and Edwardian racers used such arrangement more than a century ago (when had chain power to rear wheels). Maybe for low power, small speeds and light weight - that shouldn't be an issue, but strong braking could brake final chain, or pull it over sprocket... Maybe to put both sprocket and disk on the same wheel, or disk on another wheel and make some camouflage to hide it?
Zoran




Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


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