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Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Well.

Not a ton to report, really, as the car is still languishing, but version 3 is finally working out, and on the way to completion, finally. smiling smiley

So, I suppose some exposition is in order.

We saw a picture in an old book of a bicycle drivetrain powered car, and as I’m a bicycle mechanic, I thought to build one with the Youngest Son.
At about the same time, I discovered I really like old cars (not a car guy), and especially the old, external chain drive Edwardian era types.
Do you see where this is going?

After going through a few rotary pedal ideas, I found the Constant Torque Treadle, which was traditionally cords driving sheaves on one way bearings mounted on a common shaft. The set up allows linear (ish) moti9n to be translated into rotary motion.

I imagined using modern bicycle components to make a CTT device, and tried it out. Two freewheeling gears mounted on a common shaft can operate as a CTT.

The problem is, the vehicle cannot roll backward, which is fine when driving, especially on hills, but not so much when you need to move it around.

I came up with two solutions, and I’m still not sure which will make the final cut. Solution one is a dog type clutch, similar to those in a GN chain tranny. The gear is in, or out, and it has a very robust engagement dog.
The second solution is to install a “coaster” brake hub as an idler, because a coaster brake hub can roll backward without engaging the drive, unlike a freewheel.

As it sits, the CTT shaft drives an idler shaft with gears and chain, and the idler shaft drives the external drive gears, which drive the rear wheels via chains.
There is the option to add a geared hud into the “transmission” to allow multiple speeds.

I think internally geared hubs are too weak for the load a “car” will impose.

The frame is pine, and the axle beam is Doug fir. The body panels will be cloth mache, which is strong and light. The “suspension”, front and rear, will consist of laminated ash “springs” and “dampers” made from bolts and brackets. The idea is to look like it will move, but not move. smiling smiley

Anyway, I will update as it progresses. After this is done, the cyclecart will begin. Then the next cyclecart. Then? smiling smiley

Peace,
Robert

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Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Some more random pictures. Spindles, axle, dog clutch, and the last iteration of the body we’ve since abandoned as too modern looking. smiling smiley

Peace,
Robert


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moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello, Robert!
Great start to follow your project! Excellent information: text, sketches and photos!

I have to study a little more system of transmission with details, but it is understandable for me and looks practical.
Some more photos of chassis and axles, with dimensions, would be welcomed. For me, a body is cute, but...

There could be found cute Edwardian racers, with aerodynamic bodies - that should be suitable for light pedal cars.

Regards,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

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Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Zoran,
Sorry for the brevity. There is a TON more stuff, and lots ore to tell. I’m time crunched, but will add more.
Here is a picture of the car we are trying to emulate, now, and a few pics of the new body.

Peace,
Robert


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Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
More pictures and sketches...

Peace,
Robert


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MalibuMan Cas Tuyn
Weert, Limburg, Netherlands   NLD
I love your steering mechanism that frees your foot area from a steering rod going diagonally to the front wheels.

In my cyclekart I am designing I want to have a small cargo area / front booth and I came up with a design for a 'drive-by-wire' system that may be of interest to you.

The steering wheel is connected to a small drum of which the diameter determines the steering ratio. small diameter = accurate/slow steering, bigger diameter = coarse/fast steering. Two wires are wound around the drum a few times in opposite directions and via 2 pulleys connect to the steering rod between the two Ackermann arms on the wheels. Steer to the right, and the cables move right too. The 2 pulleys turn around that motion so the steering rod moves to the left. If your Ackermann arms point backwards this points your wheels on the ground to the right.


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Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
In reply to # 29044 by MalibuMan I love your steering mechanism that frees your foot area from a steering rod going diagonally to the front wheels.

In my cyclekart I am designing I want to have a small cargo area / front booth and I came up with a design for a 'drive-by-wire' system that may be of interest to you.

The steering wheel is connected to a small drum of which the diameter determines the steering ratio. small diameter = accurate/slow steering, bigger diameter = coarse/fast steering. Two wires are wound around the drum a few times in opposite directions and via 2 pulleys connect to the steering rod between the two Ackermann arms on the wheels. Steer to the right, and the cables move right too. The 2 pulleys turn around that motion so the steering rod moves to the left. If your Ackermann arms point backwards this points your wheels on the ground to the right.

Oh, I love that system of steering, it’s like a boat. smiling smiley My original idea was to use such a aoreand bobbin style setup, but the idea to use a crank arm from a kids bike as a steering arm was too good to not use. I think the chain driving the steering looks a bit like an old timing chain or somesuch, too, which is half the reason to use it. smiling smiley

Peace,
Robert

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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 29000 by Carty McCartFace More pictures and sketches...

Peace,
Robert
=================================================================
Hello, Robert!
It seems that I have to open a special folder in my computer archive for your photos and sketches!
They are quite useful now as inspiration (everything is possible?), and could be a practical solution at first for my step-grandson three-wheel pedal car and later for my two-seat pedal-powered quadricycle if ever built...

You show us an excellent way of testing steering and pedal mechanisms before instaling them in pedal-car. At first, I had in plan to use such system of hanging push-pedals with cable and chain or maybe sliding pedals, but with similar final effect - moving transferred at free-wheels on jack-axle. Now, I changed a system to something different, just to use as much of components from good kid-bicycle.

While thinking about a final version of a body in a style of Edwardian racers (as English classified them, cars from 1906 up to 1924) - take a look at this work on pedal-powered Blitzen Benz.

It isn't a Mercedes, but it is in a similar category and later two companies anyway merged... In any case, a grill is mostly that make difference between many original models, possibly used as inspiration.

Regards,
Zoran

P.S.: I am not sure why pictures have a black background and are not so precise as on original that I copied?



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-01-25 03:49 PM by moto-klasika.


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moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 29049 by Carty McCartFace
In reply to # 29044 by MalibuMan I love your steering mechanism that frees your foot area from a steering rod going diagonally to the front wheels.

In my cyclekart I am designing I want to have a small cargo area/front booth and I came up with a design for a 'drive-by-wire' system that may be of interest to you.

The steering wheel is connected to a small drum of which the diameter determines the steering ratio. small diameter = accurate/slow steering, bigger diameter = coarse/fast steering. Two wires are wound around the drum a few times in opposite directions and via 2 pulleys connect to the steering rod between the two Ackermann arms on the wheels. Steer to the right, and the cables move right too. The 2 pulleys turn around that motion so the steering rod moves to the left. If your Ackermann arms point backwards this points your wheels on the ground to the right.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Oh, I love that system of steering, it’s like a boat. smiling smiley My original idea was to use such an around bobbin style setup, but the idea to use a crank arm from a kids bike as a steering arm was too good to not use. I think the chain driving the steering looks a bit like an old timing chain or somesuch, too, which is half the reason to use it. smiling smiley

Peace,
Robert
======================================
Hello Robert and Cas!
Thank you, both for the interesting solutions for a steering system that could be practical for pedal cars, where it is good to have free space for pedals and legs, or for some baggage!

As I remember, there are a few systems with chain reduction used by members of our CK-Club, but only Fabrice from Gaoul's Club used a system of bobbin and steel cables (paired)...
Both of yours variants could be used for step-grandson pedal-car, but for our quadricycle, could be modified to have diagonal steering shaft, because there is a place between two of us.

Anyway, some combination could be done, there is still time for that.
All of the variants were used at cyclecars from 1910-1925 with success, or better said without too many problems! (they were faster and heavier than our custom-karts)

Cas, what's happening with your velomobile project?

Caio,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

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MalibuMan Cas Tuyn
Weert, Limburg, Netherlands   NLD
Robert, your system certainly has more of a steampunk / MadMax style to it, go for it. Show the technology.

Zoran, for my velomobile project I have gotten myself into trouble by wanting to go streetlegal, fully electrical, and full suspension. I did drop the pedal-drive as the moped maximum power is 4000 Watt, and a human like me is about 250 Watt, so not worth the extra hassle. I will be drawing and investigating for some more time before I really get started. The good part is that it will look much more like a custom cyclekart than my first ideas.

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In reply to # 29000 by Carty McCartFace More pictures and sketches...

Peace,
Robert

Do I understand correctly (from the photos you attached), that the chains replace the cables (as it was in the first drawings you posted)?

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Man, I realize thismthread is just a nonsenses blob of confusion, which is what happens when a scatterbrain tries to layout a brief overview of a long, drawn out, multi attempt project. Ahem.

I will dig up more pictures to make things less confusing, but I’ll use words, for now. smiling smiley

The original project idea was to copy an old magazine project called the flymobile, which was a toy car powered by bicycle parts, and a flywheel. Pedals drive flywheel, flywheel drives belt, belt drives axle type deal, but we decided the belt was just too much power drain.
The next step was an attempt to drive the flywheel and use chains, but no way to clutch the chain drive off the flywheel, which would be simple to do with a belt.

So...

The car progressed with a regular rotary crank style drive set on a longitudinal beam,,but spinning cranks under a stylish hood isn’t easy.

So...

I discovered the CTT, and decided to try and emulate it. By this point the project had become an externally chain drive old tymey race car homage, and since the drivetrain was still to be bicycle based, I thought to adapt the CTT concept to bicycle parts.
I put two single speed free wheels side by side on a shaft, and drove them with lengths of chain The are connected to cords at either end. One end of the chains are connected by a common cord, so the must reciprocate, and become a push/pull system, and the other end of the chains are connected to cord going to the pedal/arms.

When I decided to use pivoting arms, rather than rotary arms, I first thought to use bike cranks still, and mom t the pivot low. Not enough leverage.
Longer arms made pedaling awkward and cord routing difficult.
Along the way, the body became more,svelte and complicated.

But, I had an epiphany one night while staring at it, and decided to use hanging pedals. Hanging pedals allow both a longer lever, and a clear floor, so the whole floor are under foot will be clear in this car, allowing for emergency Fred Flinstoning. Ahem.

The new, longer, hanging cranks lead to the new inspiration car, which is a MUCH simpler body to build.

The major reason for using the bike parts for steering is to include more bike stuff, but also to provide eye candy when the hood panels are opened.

I will fill in the blanks in more detail.

Peace,
Robert

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Gosh, this thread is terrible! Hehe.

The car remains in the “stare design” stage, waiting for a breakthrough moment to occur.

The front end and drive mechanism are up in the air, again...

The pedals are going to hang and swing, allowing longer pedal arms and better motion for the legs, and since they will hang, the support block will be overhead, not part of the frame of the car.

This has made me rethink the front of the car. I think rather than going frame heavy and body light, I want to integrate the whole as a sort of monocoque, so I think I want to used thin ply as the body, over light stringers. I think the ply will act to stiffen the whole greatly, and I think 3mm ply with 4oz glass will be lighter and infinitely stronger than cloth mache.

I’m also planning to build a real cyclecart, and started playing with possible bodies for it, and the stressed ply idea came from there, really.

Anyway, I plan to dream and draw some more before I tear anything apart, if I do. Almost every mechanical bit has been located, too, so it’s almost time to stop dreaming. smiling smiley

I have been working on the seat, and will get some shots posted. I have been busy, too. One large boat and one small boat, both being built at the same time...

Peace,
Robert

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 29069 by MalibuMan Robert, your system certainly has more of a steampunk / MadMax style to it, go for it. Show the technology.

Zoran, for my velomobile project I have gotten myself into trouble by wanting to go street-legal, fully electrical, and full suspension. I did drop the pedal-drive as the moped maximum power is 4000 Watt, and a human like me is about 250 Watt, so not worth the extra hassle. I will be drawing and investigating for some more time before I really get started. The good part is that it will look much more like a custom cyclekart than my first ideas.
=================================================
Hello, Cas!
For sure that so-called "light quadricycle" should be a better project and more practical, with power up to 4 Kilowatts and speeds up to 45 km/hour.
Of course, need for pedals is minimal, except if you want to have some reserve - dead battery, or some malfunction of electronic.

Such quadricycle could be good for two persons if you need or like such configuration. From experience of some other constructors, for such two-seater could be enough 2 Kilowatts (two motors, one for each wheel with a power of one Kilowatt), but more power is for sure more confidence... Price for bigger motors are not so higher, but controllers and batteries are much more expensive...

Do not forget that quadricycle with rear wheels not more apart than 46 cm is classified as three-wheeler: something less complicated system of lights and signalisation and no need for a differential in any form.
--- ---
It seems to me that I should stay on pedal-only-power, the same as Robert, at least for some time - "electrification" is too expensive for me, now or forever.
So, I will follow Robert's topic for practical use: for my step-grandson pedal-car and later for reconstruction of my pedal-power quadricycle.
In the same time, from curiosity and probable future use - I will "spy" your topic if you start it...

Good luck with design and construction!

Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 29536 by Carty McCartFace Gosh, this thread is terrible! Hehe.

The car remains in the “stare design” stage, waiting for a breakthrough moment to occur.
The front end and drive mechanism are up in the air, again...
The pedals are going to hang and swing, allowing longer pedal arms and better motion for the legs, and since they will hang, the support block will be overhead, not part of the frame of the car.
This has made me rethink the front of the car. I think rather than going frame heavy and body light, I want to integrate the whole as a sort of monocoque, so I think I want to use thin ply as the body, over light stringers. I think the ply will act to stiffen the whole greatly, and I think 3mm ply with 4oz glass will be lighter and infinitely stronger than cloth mache.
I’m also planning to build a real cyclecart, and started playing with possible bodies for it, and the stressed ply idea came from there, really.
Anyway, I plan to dream and draw some more before I tear anything apart if I do. Almost every mechanical bit has been located, too, so it’s almost time to stop dreaming. smiling smiley
I have been working on the seat and will get some shots posted. I have been busy, too. One large boat and one small boat, both being built at the same time...

Peace,
Robert
============================
Hello, Robert!
Anything new on American front?
What is a development of your cute and practical project?

--- ---
From some of my studies, hanging pedals system (push-pull) is the most practical solution, either for efficiency or for an economy of a space...
Something as at your first sketches? I will try that on my step-grandson's pedal-car and maybe later on my pedal-powered quadricycle after starting its reconstruction...

Another option is push-pull pedals sliding over some kind of rails but it looks to me more complicated.
Maybe to build a working model of a pedal system in full size, simple and cheap, with a possibility of modifications?

--- ---
Maybe plywood monocoque shell for chassis/body unit wouldn't have more weight and more complication, than one strong wooden frame with a light body on it (wooden frame and fabric). Maybe it would be stronger, too - and more resistance on torsion forces?
I am thinking about both variants, too - so, I will follow your project with interest!

Peace,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


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