CKC

Custom Karts Forum

Pedal Car

AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In reply to # 30185 by moto-klasika
============================
Hello, Robert!
Anything new on American front?
What is a development of your cute and practical project?

--- ---
From some of my studies, hanging pedals system (push-pull) is the most practical solution, either for efficiency or for an economy of a space...
Something as at your first sketches? I will try that on my step-grandson's pedal-car and maybe later on my pedal-powered quadricycle after starting its reconstruction...

--- ---
Maybe plywood monocoque shell for chassis/body unit wouldn't have more weight and more complication, than one strong wooden frame with a light body on it (wooden frame and fabric). Maybe it would be stronger, too - and more resistance on torsion forces?
I am thinking about both variants, too - so, I will follow your project with interest!

Peace,
Zoran

I've been following this subject as well (and thinking about it, too). I recall reading an article about an efficiency comparison between pedal cranks, and some sort of swinging mechanism, but I don't remember where, or even which design was said to be "best". I had also concluded that the hanging swing arms would be better than the bottom pivot design, although there are some advantages to that way as well. But between the top-mounted swing arms, and a sliding design, which would be most efficient? (I'm thinking mostly about building something for my 4 year old grandson, and I just react against the stuff they have for kids now-a-days - all these battery powered things. I just think a child needs to get exercise, and provide the power to go.) Anyway, I hadn't thought of slides at all, but what came to mind right away was the drawer slides they use of cabinets now. (Not all of them would be stout enough, but some are rated at greater weight capacities.)

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Artcar Artur O
Rochester Hills, MI, USA   USA
Circular motion is more efficient. See summary and study results at: https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/catalog/8488

Good luck with your project.

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Sorry, All. This project has been a long time ordeal, with mostly thinking, staring, and starting over. Haha.

The drive system was actually just messed with one more time, but I’m satisfied with what I have, now. I thought I might use separate drives to each wheel, allowing a sort of differential effect, but I decided to keep it simple.

The problem with rotary pedals in a car is room. Spinning pedals need more room to spin, than lever style pedals need to reciprocate. To be sure, rotary cranks are more efficient, but the reciprocating pedals can be made more efficient by pairing them to each other, rather than having each sprung independently to return.

I’m not sure about sliding pedals. I know nothing of them.

The major “problem” with the CTT type drive is the inability to roll backward, which is fine when ascending a hill, haha, but not great when the car needs to be rolled backward to move it.

My solution was to make a dog type clutch that can be engaged to drive and disengaged to roll freely.

As to the body, my plan is/was to use cloth mache panels. When stretched, sized, and saturated in glue, cloth becomes a rudimentary plastic sort of deal, which is relatively light, and a sort of flexible strong.

I had thought about a plywood monocoque, but I want the car to be somewhat like the goofy old cars it intends to emulate. The frame is a rectangle made from dovetailed 1” x 3” pine, doubled at the ends, where the springs are meant to mount. The “springs”are laminated ash “packs”, and the “dampers” are to be bolts and brackets. The dampers will be set at an angle to locate the axle both ways. The effect will be to appear like suspension, but be a rigid extension of the frame.

The body needs to be strong enough to support the pedaling force, and not much else, so I think the rigid central frame with light stringers and cloth panels will be simple, cheap, and strong and light enough.

The cyclecart will surely be a plywood monocoque. smiling smiley

I am in the process of laminating up a new front axle beam, and sewing up a seat cover, but this is somewhat a back burner project, still.
Soon I’ll be able to go full bore, again, but for now it’s baby steps.

Another month, maybe, until we have a roller...

Peace,
Robert

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello, Ernest, Artur and Robert!
Variants of pedal mechanisms always intrigued me, from childhood and teenage years, in spite that I never had my own bicycle, when I wanted it the most.
Later, in my late forties in Belgrade, I got one classic, big bicyle that later left to my friend...
Some years ago, here in Bern, I bought two new bicycles to be used for our pedal-powered quadricycle...

Attractive side of pedal-power is that there are so many variants, most of them useful and practical, so we could have a great choice and open field for searching, studying, experimenting and finally use. If we failed, it isn't too expensive or complicated to reconstruct our mechanism and try something new?

Ernest,
I had some time ago similar ideas about sliding pedals, with a possibility to push them together for a start of a quadricycle, especially on a hill and later to work with them in opposite way during an ordinary ride... I am still thinking about such system, but for full-size velocar for two of us...

Artur,
I think that I saw results of such research about variants of pedal system, or some other - but results were the same.
However, I think that such difference isn't so important, and my goal should be to have relaxing seating position good for pedalling - old and heavy pensioners. It seems to me that hanging pedals or sliding pedals are better for that than circular pedals.

Robert,
I am not any kind of expert for bicycle's systems, so I would be glad to follow your project, and the same to read other members' comments, solutions, suggestions...

I started my own topic some time ago (for kid pedal-car), but the project is now "at ice" - waiting for warmer weather to work in my modest workshop in the small basement-box of the building where we live...

Ciao,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
Useful tools (1).JPG    71.7 KB
Useful tools (1).JPG

Useful tools & workshop (2).JPG    56.1 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Useful tools & workshop (1).JPG    47.7 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Re-exposure of IMG_8155w.jpg    45.2 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Everything is on track. Sort of. Haha.

I’ve been working, and working on other projects. The car is not dead. Very far from, in fact. smiling smiley

My latest idea is to have the swinging pedals and steering shaft combined into one main strength beam down the center of the hood (bonnet), and the rest of the front of the body will be ply. There will be a bulkhead at the front and rear, and one partial ring frame where the pedals mount, all tied into the chassis (frame). I plan to keep the chain driven steering deal, as I think it looks like some type of timing chain type deal, and the crank arm cum drag link sort of looks like a hand start crank. The vertical steering wheel way up high goes with the look, too, and will allow a “half” wheel to look decent.

A new front axle is being laminated, but I need good glue weather.

I am also investigating one more idea for a clutch. A simple, simple one. The clutch on this car is needed to allow it to roll backward. Without the clutch, the rear will need to be lifted, or a “coaster” type hub will need to be added to the drivetrain. An extra hub is extra loss, though, but I’ll use it, if needed. We have also toyed with the notion of adding a multi speed hub. Internally geared hubs are out, as the only one heavy duty enough for a car are the price of one! Haha. A big, long, indexed shift lever on the outside of the car, just near the brake lever, seems so right, too. The car is to have an operable head/tail/brake light system, too, to make it a legal cycle to operate on the road and trail.

The ideal for the drive is to go from the freewheels, to an idler shaft, to the rear wheels. That is the most efficient, and I’d like to eliminate everything else. A simple clutch could do that. We’ll see.

Don’t worry, I am going to finish this. Then I’m going to build a couple of custom “karts”. The first kart I want to build is a 1909 Lion-Peugeot. I have a thing for external chain drives...

Peace,
Robert


Attachments:
E4FD062D-8C11-4A53-AF10-015159B41A5F.jpeg    62.9 KB
E4FD062D-8C11-4A53-AF10-015159B41A5F.jpeg

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
I've been thinking about this more today, and am wondering what kind of range of movement would be best for the average size adult. (12 - 14 inches? More?) As I commented before, I think the sliding mechanism allows for more variation in the range than does a circular crank system, and with hanging swing arms, I was wondering if the pivot point (above) shouldn't be located a bit to the back, so that the foot pegs/pedals would reach a higher point at the forward extent of motion than at the rear. Also, if sliding pedals are used, should the front of the slide be raised a bit? One further comment about a sliding mechanism in comparison to the upper pivot swing arms - maybe the mechanism itself would make up the weight difference, but the sliding design would not require as much frame structure up top. I haven't had time to gather the parts, and experiment with any of this, so those that have done that are far ahead of me. I'm just thinking out loud at this point.

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 30535 by Carty McCartFace Everything is on track. Sort of. Haha.

I’ve been working, and working on other projects. The car is not dead. Very far from, in fact. smiling smiley

My latest idea is to have the swinging pedals and steering shaft combined into one main strength beam down the center of the hood (bonnet), and the rest of the front of the body will be ply. There will be a bulkhead at the front and rear, and one partial ring frame where the pedals mount, all tied into the chassis (frame). I plan to keep the chain driven steering deal, as I think it looks like some type of timing chain type deal, and the crank arm cum drag link sort of looks like a hand start crank. The vertical steering wheel way up high goes with the look, too, and will allow a “half” wheel to look decent.

A new front axle is being laminated, but I need good glue weather.

I am also investigating one more idea for a clutch. A simple, simple one. The clutch on this car is needed to allow it to roll backward. Without the clutch, the rear will need to be lifted, or a “coaster” type hub will need to be added to the drivetrain. An extra hub is extra loss, though, but I’ll use it, if needed. We have also toyed with the notion of adding a multi speed hub. Internally geared hubs are out, as the only one heavy duty enough for a car are the price of one! Haha. A big, long, indexed shift lever on the outside of the car, just near the brake lever, seems so right, too. The car is to have an operable head/tail/brake light system, too, to make it a legal cycle to operate on the road and trail.

The ideal for the drive is to go from the freewheels, to an idler shaft, to the rear wheels. That is the most efficient, and I’d like to eliminate everything else. A simple clutch could do that. We’ll see.

Don’t worry, I am going to finish this. Then I’m going to build a couple of custom “karts”. The first kart I want to build is a 1909 Lion-Peugeot. I have a thing for external chain drives...

Peace,
Robert
=============================================================================
Hello, Robert!
Quite interesting ideas about a combination of a frame, body and pedalling mechanism!

That is one of the reasons that I "follow you" - to learn more from you and other people, theory and practice: easier way than to testing everything by myself.
All that should be more useful for my next project - reconstruction of pedal-powered quadricycle that I built, but not satisfied with general design and solutions.
Kid-car should be an easier solution, being lighter and three-wheeler: a combination of hanging pedals and rear part of bicycle...
--- ---
For your laminated leaf-springs - you mentioned that they wouldn't be functional as suspension, but just to replace the axle, to be more stylish?
If already built them, couldn't you make them functional as suspension?
Many light aeroplanes use such suspension with success?
--- ---
Peugeot Lion Voiturette racing car was one of the most unusual racers, not just in an already strange class of GP-voiturettes...
It could be a nice replica, but it needs that long (high) single-cylinder engine in front to be visible, complete with even strangest over-head exhaust pipe...

Peugeot Lion had an overhead multi-valve system, with four exhaust valves in some variants...

I am sure that such CK would be accepted as "standard" CK, no mater on inspiration automobile nor your variant...

Just to keep THREE saint principles of cyclekartism:
1. engine HONDA or its clones, or any other similar with around 200cc and 6.5 Hp for that start (later could have turned it to 10 and more HP, then
2. CVT transmission and finally,
3. 17" wheels, similar to HONDA...

Size and weight somewhere around "standard" CK shouldn't be a problem...

Ciao,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
peugeot lion voiturette racer.jpg    45 KB
peugeot lion voiturette racer.jpg

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
In reply to # 30551 by Neto I've been thinking about this more today, and am wondering what kind of range of movement would be best for the average size adult. (12 - 14 inches? More?) As I commented before, I think the sliding mechanism allows for more variation in the range than does a circular crank system, and with hanging swing arms, I was wondering if the pivot point (above) shouldn't be located a bit to the back, so that the footpegs/pedals would reach a higher point at the forward extent of motion than at the rear. Also, if sliding pedals are used, should the front of the slide be raised a bit? One further comment about a sliding mechanism in comparison to the upper pivot swing arms - maybe the mechanism itself would make up the weight difference, but the sliding design would not require as much frame structure up top. I haven't had time to gather the parts and experiment with any of this, so those that have done that are far ahead of me. I'm just thinking out loud at this point.
===========================
Hello, Ernest!
As I said, many variants of pedal-mechanisms allowed us to experiment with the best for us?

For the range of the movement of hanging or standing swinging pedals, or sliding pedals - should be around a diameter of rotating pedals? Now, I am not sure about precise size, but that could easily be checked...

Mostly, hanging swing-arms are vertical, when they are in neutral position? Would it be better if they are more inclined to the front or to the rear - only testing could give the best solution.
Anyway, a changeable position of pedals in a neutral position (to the front or to the rear) could be useful for drivers of various sizes, or in my case for growing kid?

Maybe sliding pedals should work better if rails go down a little or up a little, looking from the seat? Or that isn't of the big importance?

Ciao,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Everyone,

Like everything about the pedal car, the swinging pedals were “stolen”. The original idea had bottom mounted cranks, but I realized top swing cranks could be made longer, so increasing the ratio.

The cranks I intend to use are “stirrup” type crank arms, with a place for the foot to go, but not a “pedal” in the sense we all think. The effect is to push in an almost linear fashion against the swinging crank arm, because the pedal pivots on the crank arm. Not so much a pedal, though, as a simple rotations sleeve. The effect is similar to the stirrups on an English saddle.
The over all motion of the legs remains essentially the same, whether pedals revolve of reciprocate. It’s odd, but true.

In my system, the pedals will be connected to each other, rather than return springs, so the pedals always reciprocate. This helps eliminate the otherwise “dead” space at each end of the cycle.

Hanging the pedal from the top also allows an open floor, which I think is a bonus for a pedal powered car.

And, to be clear, this is meant to be a child’s toy, but also to carry an adult. The hope is to perfect the drive system, then add a bump drive electric motor into the mix...

The suspension? I will keep the “springs” decorative for the pedal car. I am going to change the frame rails, though, to reflect the new inspiration car better.

As to the Lion-Peugeot? Well, I want one BECAUSE it is so weird. The odd ball tailpipe will be able to serve double duty as a roll bar (haha), and the engine and radiator are the whole reason to build it.

As I understand, the engine is the way it is because stroke was not limited, so they made a long stroker. My buddy and I have already discussed the engine, and what to do about it, some. I had thought to just make the radiator decorative, but Rhys suggested I use the core of a hot water tank, which made me think we should really have a functioning radiator. So, if one can’t be converted, my plumber buddy will make me one in exchange for a driftboat.

And the drive? Oh, cone clutch, for sure, between the engine and bevel shaft. Maybe even a multi speed transmission in the middle? Not at all ”formula”, as it were.

The other cart I want to build is actually a pair of cycle CARS. I want doors and lights and all. Hehe.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. About the follower deal. I don’t, as a rule, do the internet, don’t know how it works, and don’t understand any of the nuance of communication here.
I only came here to share my weird stuff with like minds. I don’t like to talk about myself, or run my mouth, and I feel this whole deal is very egotistical. Simply posting this stuff makes me feel like a horse’s fundament. Who cares, after all, what I have to say?

I am sorry for having offended so many with my ignorance.

I am used to not understanding people, and being misunderstood.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Rhysn Rhys Nolan
Tamworth, Staffordshire, UK   GBR
I too am following this with interest.
Given that pedal power is pretty low, wouldn't the sliding rails introduce a level of friction, even with the best methods, that would detract from what leaves your legs, and winds up at the wheels? Not being a great advocate of pedalling (cos I am a lazy old coot) my mind says reduce power loss wherever you can.
Of course as each of you knows, I love the Lion Peugeot, it would be a great diversion from the seriousness which is invading the "main" forum.

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
Rhys,

Frictional loss is enemy number one! The original idea came from a thing we saw in an old magazine called a Flymobile.

The idea was to pedal power a weighted flywheel, then have the flywheel drive the rear wheels by means of a belt, with tensioner “clutch”. The flywheel idea itself is brilliant, but the belt is a real drag. Haha. If I could figure out a way to drive the rear wheels from a flywheel with chains, it would be ideal. Connecting/disconnecting the drive chain/gear from the flywheel is difficult, though. Hmmm, now that I think of it, perhaps that dog clutch, or a similar somesuch? A pinned “clutch” engaging the gear, perhaps?

Maybe I will reinvestigate the idea...

The other side of the pedaling coin is this vehicle IS designed to wear a young boy out. Ahem. Of course, as I’ve said, the idea of pulling a small airstream type camper behind a pedal car down a converted rail trail to “camp” would be pretty darn awesome. And hilarious.

This dude’s trailer is AWESOME, and would be killer to tow behind a cyclecart. Country touring in a cyclecart, anyone? smiling smiley

As to the Lion Peugeot? Well, I am NOT a “car” guy. Last year, I didn’t even know such a thing as chain driven cars existed. I discovered Edwardian era racing cars, and fell in love.
Shortly thereafter I discover the cycleCAR, and my life was ruined. smiling smiley The GN Fraser Nash became an instant dream car. That particular type drew my attention because of the chain drive transmission. Well, and the love axle/drift-slide they reguire. Oh, and am I ever a sucker for external levers!

Well, I decided to build a cyclecar. Then I discovered cyclecarts, and they look fun. I had hoped to explore that particular subset of the cart world, but it’s not the fit for me. I will build a few weird carts we’ll drive around on our county roads and dirt lots and fields of those we know, and that’s about it.

I certainly have no ill will toward any seriousness. I think passion is awesome. I am merely a dilettante diddling around with carts in between boat builds.

I am also a maker of things. I am an accomplished wood wright, passable blacksmith/bladesmith, and a trained draughtsman and builder. When I was in college (the second time, even!) IT was Industrial Technology. Haha.
That said, I will certainly “continue on” to other projects and hobbies. Why not? Life is short, and the wick is lit!

Peace,
Robert

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello,
We should not be too worried if people do not understand us or we do not understand them - this situation is similar to many forums, so this Cycelkart Club could not be an exception.
Simply - we do not hear/read anybody else than ourselves, being intolerant and self-important, mostly not by bad intentions but by misunderstanding.

No matter of some really bad behaviour, from time-to-time, here-and-there - general resultant is positive!
My personal attitude is that any forum, including this wonderful CycleKart Club, I would judge by the best, not by the worst.

Anyway, all "normal" persons are the same or at least similar, and all of us unorthodox persons are quite different from them, but also between ourselves!

Just to return to the base: designing small motorised vehicles as compromise of go-karts and cyclecars, pretending to be scaled-down replicas of GP racers from vintage era, or anything else, powered by lawn-mower (industrial) engines of 6.5 Hp trough lawn-mower CVT speed changing, then constructing them and cruising around and even "racing" them - that is something quite unusual, unorthodox and crazy?

In my first letter to great Pete Stevenson, RIP founder of Cyclekartism with his brother Bill, son Mike and friends - I wrote: "Now, I am happy when finally discovered that I am not only lunatic on the World" (dreaming about something as CycleKart are!)
--- ---
For sure that sliding pedals should have more friction resistance and that could be important for low power that we could produce for a longer time. From some special forums about HPV, I learned that ordinary person without top-level condition could produce a power of 150-200 Watts.
I suppose that two of us could produce together 250 Watts during 15-30 minutes which should be ordinary cruising distance in one way across our city of Bern (proper rest before going home).
Therefore, an efficent pedal system is essential, but comfortable position also. The lightweight kart is necessary! Our big weight couldn't be changed too much...
--- ---
Therefore - keep going/rolling, even with karts propelled by human power, maybe with "electrification" done later...
(good for a pair of lazy old coots)

Ciao,
Zoran

P.S.: Paul Elkins is the great master of imagination and guru for the popularity of human or engine propelled vehicles for land and water.
Wouldn't be lost time to search for his projects and philosophy of fun in life trough dreaming, designing and constructing...



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)

Neto Ernest B
Berlin, OH, USA   USA
In respect to the amount of friction that would be added by using a sliding mechanism as opposed to a swing-arm arrangement, I obviously do not know. But if the sliding tracks were positioned below, instead of above the "pedals", it seems to me that you would have at least a bit of weight gain there. (Not only from less structural members needed above, but also less chain and sprockets.) And with bearings & rollers used, how much friction would really be produced? But I am not thinking of something for an adult, but rather for a child, and I'm not sure how the advantages & disadvantages of that balance out.

Carty McCartFace Robert J
Fresno, CA, USA   USA
If you look at the first sketches posted (I know, they are jumbled and rough), you can see how the hanging pedals work, and even the shape.
The cranks will hang from a main timber beam, which is not overly large, not heavy. Really no more extra strength than would be needed, anyway. The only real addition needed for the cranks to swing is some blocking to create enough area to support some bearings.
I think running the steering wheel shaft horizontally along the hood ridge in a sort of girder/box will be all the beef needed, and add no unnecessary weight or complication.
The lower end of the cranks pull on spectra cords which are attached to short lengths of chain, and again to a spectra cord. The pedals are made to reciprocate, and drive the chain, in turn, over alternate freewheels, which keeps the common shaft rotating.
Provided my new clutch idea works, there will be only the CTT shaft, and the idler shaft which will drive the wheels, which doesn’t add up to much frictional loss.
The drive system I’ve come up with isn’t ideal, but it’s simple to make with off the shelf parts, which is a consideration for the drive train.

I’m very busy on a boat with a soft deadline, and work with a hard deadline, but I hope to get my clutch test done soon. The whole idler area of the drivetrain is still open. There are a few options, and I’ll use the simplest. This is the final piece of the puzzle.

Peace,
Robert

moto-klasika Avatar
moto-klasika Zoran R. Pualic
Bern, Bern, Switzerland   CHE
Hello, Robert!
Similar idea to your, for steering with chain reduction?
Ciao,
Zoran



Zoran R. Pualić
(mostly living in Bern, Swiss & happy in my Belgrade, Serbia)


Attachments:
steering & suspension (0).jpg    61.5 KB
steering & suspension (0).jpg

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions




Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster





Join The Club

Sign in to ask questions, share photos, and access all website features

Your Karts

1934 CycleKart German

Text Size

Larger Smaller
Reset Save

Sponsor Links